Laura Kerbey: The hidden costs of masking

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Episode 202 with Laura Kerbey.

“Masking is bloody exhausting. Then again, not masking is scary because we worry people won’t like us or accept us.”

Laura is an educator, consultant, and author who has been working with autistic children and young people for nearly 25 years. Laura is the founder of PAST, which stands for Positive Assessments Support and Training, and co-founder of KITE Therapeutic Learning Services, and she’s known internationally for her expertise in autism, PDA (Persistent Drive for Autonomy), and neurodivergent education.

She’s also the author of several books, including the newly released “The Kids’ Simple Guide to PDA” and “The Parents’ and Professionals’ Simple Guide to PDA” as well as The (Slightly Distracted) Woman’s Guide to Living with an Adult ADHD Diagnosis, which was released this past summer. Laura brings both professional expertise and lived experience to her work — she was diagnosed with ADHD in her forties and self-identifies as autistic.

In this episode, Laura and I discuss:

•  Laura’s personal journey to her ADHD diagnosis in her forties, and her self-identification as autistic
•  Why so many women are overlooked or misdiagnosed until adulthood
•  The physical and mental impacts of masking and “seeming fine”
•  Strategies for unmasking and advocating for oneself
•  The power of reframing ADHD from “deficit” to difference

Laura is also offering a 6-week course in January for late-diagnosed and late-identifying women with ADHD, which is based on her book. For information or to register for the course: https://www.trybooking.com/uk/FFKX

Website: www.p-ast.co.uk

Instagram: @laura_kerbey

Facebook: @LauraKerbeyPast

Links & Resources:

The (Slightly Distracted) Woman’s Guide to Living with an Adult ADHD Diagnosis by Laura Kerbey

KITE Therapeutic Learning Services

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Episode edited by E Podcast Productions

Laura Kirbey 0:00
It's not even criticism. It can just be feedback. It can be it can be your own brain telling you that, that you've done something wrong. I think it's a sense that you're constantly in trouble. It's a sense that you've constantly done something wrong, that you've upset people, that if your phone rings and it's a number you don't recognize. You think they're not going to be calling me with good news. They're going to be calling me to say that I've done something wrong.

Katy Weber 0:31
Hello and welcome to the women and ADHD podcast. I'm your host. Katy Weber, I was diagnosed with ADHD at the age of 45 and it completely turned my world upside down. I've been looking back at so much of my life, school, jobs, my relationships, all of it with this new lens, and it has been nothing short of overwhelming. I quickly discovered I was not the only woman to have this experience, and now I interview other women who like me discovered in adulthood, they have ADHD and are finally feeling like they understand who they are and how to Best lean into their strengths, both professionally and personally. You

Katy Weber 1:29
Hello, we are going to jump right in to Episode 202 in which I interviewed Laura Kirby. Laura is an educator, a consultant and author who has been working with autistic children and young people for nearly 25 years. Laura is the founder of past, which stands for Positive assessments, support and training, and the co founder of kite therapeutic learning services. And while she's based in the UK, she's known internationally for her expertise in autism, PDA, persistent drive for autonomy and neurodivergent education. Laura brings both professional expertise and lived experience to her work. She was diagnosed with ADHD in her 40s and self identifies as autistic. She's also the author of several books, including the newly released the kids simple guide to PDA and the parents and professionals simple guide to PDA, as well as the slightly distracted Woman's Guide to living with an adult ADHD diagnosis, which was released this past summer and is fantastic. So if you love this interview, I highly recommend that you check out the link in the show notes and grab yourself a copy. In this episode, Laura and I discuss why so many women are overlooked or misdiagnosed until well into adulthood, we talk about the physical and mental impacts of masking and seeming fine, and we talk about strategies for unmasking and advocating for ourselves, as well as the power of reframing ADHD from a deficit to a difference. I also wanted to let you know that Laura is offering a six week course in January for late diagnosed and late identifying women with ADHD, which is based on her book. So if you'd like to register for the course, or you just want more information, there is also a link in the episode show notes. Okay, without further ado, here is my interview with Laura.

Speaker 1 3:17
Hi, Laura. Kirby, thank you for being here. Hi, Katy, thank you for having me. Well, first

Katy Weber 3:24
of all, right off the bat, congratulations on a delightful book. I really, really enjoyed it, and, oh, good, thank you. It was so relatable. You know, it's funny, because one of the comments I get a lot with this podcast is that feeling of nodding along to so many experiences, saying, I do that too. Oh my goodness, I do that too. And even though, you know, I've been talking about this endlessly for going on five years now, I still had that lovely feeling reading your book of just like, oh, yeah, right, I do that too. Well.

Laura Kirbey 3:55
That's, that's brilliant, because that's, that's really what I wanted to achieve. Actually, I wanted to achieve something that was just really relatable, that other women would read it and go, Oh, my God, it's not just me. Like, I'm not weird, I'm not like, like, there's nothing wrong with me. Other people do that too. So I'm really glad you said that, because that's that's exactly what I wanted to achieve.

Katy Weber 4:14
Oh, absolutely. And having all the different voices from all the different women, I think, really contributed to that. You know that feeling of normalizing a lot of these shame based behaviors that we have have held on to for so long. So yeah, so thank you for putting it out into the world. Congratulations. Thank you looking forward to recommending it. So okay, well, let's start with your diagnosis. Now, you mentioned you were 46 when you were diagnosed. How long ago was that? And what was happening? You're you have your son was diagnosed first, correct? Yes, you also, and this is one of my Sorry to keep it. Keep going. This is one of my favorite things.

Laura Kirbey 4:54
Okay, talk to each other. We're ADHD.

Katy Weber 4:58
I know, right, but I've just. Wanted to say, like, you worked in the field. You worked with neurodivergent kids for, you know, a quarter of a century at this point. And so it's always fascinating to me to be like, what is it like having that aha moment after you've spent so much time immersed in this world? Okay, now I'll shut up.

Laura Kirbey 5:17
Yeah. So my I was diagnosed five years ago, and you're right. So my son, James, he was 12 when he was diagnosed, and he's 22 now. When he was diagnosed, the pediatrician said to me and his dad, well, you know one of you is really likely to be ADHD as well, and his my ex, my ex husband, he turned to me and he said, Well, that's you like, so obviously you so I think, I think I kind of suspected before then, and I'd been doing ADHD training, and actually I've been doing when I was doing training in schools and colleges on ADHD at the time, I really related that to my son. I was like, Oh yeah, he does that, and he does that, and he does that. I think what really prompted me to get my diagnosis was during covid, the way that I worked really changed, and I I started doing a lot more work online, and because of that, I started connecting with a lot of other neurodivergent people like but mainly women, and a lot of them were pursuing diagnosis for either autism or ADHD or both. And a few of my friends said to me, you know, Laura, you're clearly ADHD like, you know, amazed that you haven't figured it out yet yourself. And especially considering the work that I was doing and even being an ADHD trainer, looking back now, I kind of wish I'd done it a lot earlier. Actually, I think that there is a lot that kind of came out in the processing of receiving that diagnosis that made me think, oh, just I wish I'd known before. But I think the other thing as well with my teaching, I've only ever worked in specialist education, so I only ever worked with neurodivergent students, and literally, the moment I walked into the classroom and started working with teenagers that were neurodivergent, I just felt so comfortable with them, and they clearly felt really comfortable with me. So again, looking back, I think that I could just really relate to them, and they could obviously relate to me. So, you know, I think that's what drew me into working in that field, and why, why I enjoyed it so much as well.

Katy Weber 7:32
Yeah, I feel like I've had a conversation with many teachers, especially who were drawn to neurodivergent kids and then figured it out. So how would you say your, I guess, idea, or, you know what your thoughts about autism and neuro divergence and ADHD have? How have they changed? This is that's such a huge question. I have to rephrase that. I'm like, we could be here for hours, but I'm just curious. Like, are there any things that stand out to you in terms of how you relate to the kids, or having that understanding about your own brain, has it changed how you think about or relate to, especially kids? Yeah.

Laura Kirbey 8:11
I mean, I think one of the things that I think is a real ADHD trait is to have some really strong sense of justice and injustice as well. So I think I've always really championed young people that other people have potentially written off. And even in my school, I was a head teacher in a specialist school. And even in that setting, there were certain young people that you know other staff found really challenging, or they would accuse them of overreacting to situations. And I think there was just this real sense of in me, of like, no, no, no, that's they're right. Like, you know that is unfair, and you aren't. You aren't seeing it from their point of view. So I think, and again, I'm probably going off the tangent here, but I think it's really common in neurodivergent women, again, particularly ADHD women, to have such a strong sense of empathy. Like I'm so hyper empathetic as well. So I think that really helped me, kind of like the way that my brain worked mirrored the lot of the students I was working with, and I think that really helped me to understand them, but also I can see so much of them in myself as well, and even with my son as well. I remember, before he was diagnosed, I'd go and collect him from school, and I, like so many parents, I'm sure that have got children with ADHD, I was constantly being, like, called over by the teacher to be told about yet another misdemeanor that my son had, like, another heinous crime that, and I'd be thinking, what's wrong with that? Like, I remember one example, I think I put it in the book about, you know, the teacher was complaining that he'd painted his shoes rather than the paper. And I was like, Well, that just proves he's really creative. Like. Like, so he'd be getting into stuff, into trouble for stuff at school, and I'd be thinking, Yeah, but I used to do that like, and I quite that would make me quite frustrated as a parent, but I think it also as an educator. It I really fought the cause of a lot of my young people that other people were other teachers were maybe thinking that they would just be naughty or defiant or difficult. So I hope I've answered that question, because I went off on a bit of a tangent there.

Speaker 1 10:28
But oh well, first of all, tangents are always welcome here. That's good.

Katy Weber 10:34
I think there's also a sense of curiosity to neurodivergent people. And I, again, I feel like that's a sweeping generalization based on little to no official research, just on my own observations, but I think there's that, like you said, you know, rather than immediately scolding a child or scolding somebody for doing something the wrong way, it's more of a curiosity of like, Huh, why would you do it that way? Right? What's behind that? And I think that there's this tremendous curiosity in certain teachers too, where it's like, let me meet you where you are, and let me give you the benefit of the doubt. Yeah, and that, I think, is super helpful, you know, especially reading, you know, some of your work on PDA, and just thinking a lot about PDA and kind of my own history with a lot of you know, walking that line, whether it would have been called PDA or odd, or what, even diagnosable, I don't know. But thinking a lot about kind of what's behind these behaviors, as opposed to deeming them right or wrong, I think is integral. And PDA, I guess, for those who are uninitiated, I don't think we're going to talk much about it, unless you want to, but it's pathological demand avoidance. Or, as autistic adults have often called it a pathological drive for or persistent drive for autonomy, which I prefer,

Laura Kirbey 11:49
yeah, persistent or pervasive drive for autonomy, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Katy Weber 11:52
but yeah, so, so I'm curious. I guess one of the things I really related to in the book was the not being able to help yourself when you push the fire alarm. Like, fascinating intersection of impulsivity and there's something else there. It's not just impulsivity, like we would talk about with, like, the impulsive spending, right? That was another section of the book I related very deeply to. But just there's this, like, I can't help myself. I have to touch the hot burner kind of kid, right and there. And I've certainly had those, and I was one of those, and I'm like, There's something more than impulsivity there. I think there's just that need to understand how things work, right? Like, that kind of mind that needs to take apart the toy car or whatever, yeah.

Laura Kirbey 12:40
Like you say, it's a mixture of curiosity and it's impulsivity, but it's also impatience as well. Like I am, in some ways, I can be incredibly patient. I'm really patient with, like, the young people I work with, but at the same time, if I want to find out how something works, or I want something, I have to have it, like, straight away. It's really funny. Actually mentioned about the hot plate as well, because, again, I didn't put this in the didn't put this in the in the book, but I have such a strong memory of being a child and being in my dad's car, and he popped into a shop to get something, and he left me in the car, and the car had a cigarette lighter in it, which seems crazy now that cars had cigarette lighters, and it was one of those ones that you push the button, like the round ones, and it came out glowing orange hot. And I thought, Oh, I wonder what will happen if I press it. And I can still remember the sensation of my thumb like hissing because it burnt, but then not wanting to tell my dad, because I knew he'd be like, What the bloody hell did you do that for? So when we drove home, I had the window open a crack, and I had my thumb up the whole time so that the cold air would, like, cool my finger down, or my thumb down, but yeah, just like, I mean, I knew it was going to hurt, like I knew it was going to really burn, but I just still have to test it myself to check that that was that was true.

Katy Weber 14:09
Yeah, yeah. I wonder if, again, based on no research whatsoever, but I wonder if there's something there about just needing to make sense of the world, if there is a sense that a lot of the things we are being told don't make sense to us, right? So I wonder if there's, like, an additional drive to just understand how things work for ourselves, because that feeling might be fleeting as a child, like even the other day, I was talking to my husband about how, like, I'm doing my practicum placement right now for mental health counseling, and it's like, I just was so frustrated because everybody seems to have a different opinion than I do. And I was like, at some point when everybody is going left and I'm going right, like, who's incorrect, right? Like, at what point do I admit that maybe I have I see things wrong? And he was kind of talking to me about. Like, Well, no, you see things differently, blah, blah, but like, he was kind of coaching me in a very gentle way, but I was so frustrated because I it was, like my whole idea of what was right and wrong felt rattled to the core. And I think I don't know where I'm going with this, but I think probably to RSD, and how difficult it is to even describe RSD to people, even though I certainly know that I remember exactly where I was the very first time I heard it, and it felt like it explained so much. And so you do talk a lot about RSD in your book, which I feel like, again, it's like, how do you describe RSD to peace, to somebody who's like, not initiated, because I liked how you were, sort of like naming it with your friends who might get it right. Text somebody and be like, hey, my RSD is RSD ing right now, yeah. But, like, how do I even describe that to somebody who has no clue what I'm

Laura Kirbey 15:51
talking about? I don't know that you can. I think it's like, you know, I say in the book that I have, I think for me, on reading about RSD, like was the biggest light bulb moment of of my kind of like diagnosis like, and actually, it's not even featured in our diagnostic kind of questionnaires or anything. So when I do do ADHD assessments, and I always talk to the young person to try and sort of, you know, find out about how they react to potential triggers of RSD. So it's not even criticism. It can just be feedback. It can be it can be your own brain telling you that that you've done something wrong. I think it's a sense that you're constantly in trouble. It's a sense that you've constantly done something wrong, that you've upset people, that if your phone rings and it's a number you don't recognize, you think they're not going to be calling me with good news. They're going to be calling me to say that I've done something wrong. It's a sense that if you call a friend and they don't answer straight away, or they don't text you back, you've upset them. And for me, it triggers, like, an anxiety response in terms of, like, I feel sick, I get like, really bad butterflies in my tummy, my brain will instantly catastrophize, and I'll even even to the point that I will start inventing things that I might have done to upset that person. So it's horrible. And actually, I think it's the one part of my ADHD that is, well, it's the hardest part of my ADHD, and I think in terms of managing it, I'm still such a work in progress with it. I mean, it happened the other day, like one of my best, best friends. She's also ADHD, and she, you know, she'll admit herself, she's terrible at like, replying to messages and calling back. But I've known her for 30 years, and we're really close, and I was messaging her about something and she wasn't replying. And so in my head, I'm thinking, I've done something wrong. She's found out about something that I said or did, and I've not done anything. But my it's like your brain's lying to you constantly, and it's just, it's, it's, it's horrible, and it was actually picked up so years, years ago, when I was training to be a head teacher, we do a course here called MP Qh, which is national professional qualification for head head teachers, headship. And I had a mentor who was really lovely. And they said to me, Laura, like you. I think there was 665, children in the school. And they said, Laura, you could have a meeting with all the parents in your school, and 64 parents would tell you that the school was amazing. You were doing a brilliant job. You were fantastic head teacher, and one parent could tell you that they weren't entirely happy. And you will fixate on that one teacher. You will disregard all the positive stuff that the 64 other people have said, and you'll just focus on the one thing. And he was absolutely right,

Unknown Speaker 19:06
completely right, yeah, well, and then I

Katy Weber 19:09
think about imposter syndrome too, and how that connects, right? That that negativity bias, that sort of uncontrollable negativity bias that, you know, I'm assuming it's, you know, I'm just trying to think about, like, what radian Hallowell talk about the DM and the it's all jumbling in my now, I'm just trying to think of, like, what are the neurobiological reasons why we have such an intense negativity bias? And I've sort of feel like there's just more dopamine when we're focusing on what's not working than what's focusing on what is working. And it feels like it has to be like a very active choice to think positively and because it's kind of boring, right?

Laura Kirbey 19:55
Yeah. But I also think it links back to when we're children and. And there's the research in the book about how children by the age of 12 have received 20,000 more negative comments than their neurotypical peers. And yeah, and I don't think, how many have we received by the time we're 18 or 20 or 30, whatever? And going back to sort of education in school, you're told that you know a good student, the description of a good student is a student that is punctual and can focus and does their homework and hands in on time and has their equipment and doesn't call out and stays in their at their desk. All of those things are just naturally really challenging when you have ADHD and so even as a child, when you're trying to be good, you you end up masking because if you can't be your authentic self, which means that you are going to call out when you know the answer, and you are going to get up and wander around the room. Because, I mean, I can't even stand still when I clean my teeth. I have to walk about PACE about all the time, but you're then you've been told off for doing those things as a child, is kind of being drummed into you that being your natural, authentic self means that you're not a good child. So you grow up thinking that you're not, you know, you're not good enough just being your authentic self. So as an adult, you know, we, I think we've got these real preconceived ideas that we've been brainwashed into believing are true. And, you know, you're right, imposter syndrome and RSD are so interlinked. So going back to, you know, when I was a head teacher, particularly on this, this course I was doing, I just felt like, the whole time, I don't belong on this course. Like, I don't belong with these other adults that are meant to be here. Like, these are all like, head I mean, I was an assistant head teacher at the time, and this, this course, was full of other assistant heads and head teachers. And I just thought, yeah, they should be here. They've got, like, you know, they look the part. They they know what they're doing. They know the answers. So I would go into every single kind of, like, meeting I had with these other people, feeling really, really anxious, feeling like I shouldn't be there, feeling like I was going to get found out, kicked off the course and that I wasn't good enough. And I wrote in the book about when I had to phone up and find out whether I passed, and I sort of shouted, oh my god, like, down the phone. And the woman was like, You sound really surprised. And I was like, Well, I am like, I didn't think I was going to pass, and I was more than good enough. Like, I can see now looking back, I totally deserve to be there, but it's horrible going into work every single day thinking you're going to get caught out. Someone's literally going to march into my school and go get out. You shouldn't be here. You shouldn't be doing this job. So then you mask more because you're trying to cover up what you think are your inadequacies, but they're not that. It just you just you just can't be authentic in some of these settings. It just snowballs. It just becomes a more more and more kind of like intertwined.

Katy Weber 23:14
As you were speaking, I was thinking about the fact that I've been talking about and reading about this topic for five years now, and I really struggle with this idea of being an expert, because I feel like oftentimes the more I learn, the less I understand. And I'm much more comfortable being the journalist the question asker, because I feel like I still have so many questions, and I'm so envious of people who who talk about themselves like they are experts. Because I'm like, I don't, I feel like there is no nobody knows what they're talking about, really, right? Like, I'm like, there are so many times where I feel like the curtain gets pulled back and there's just, you know, 10 more questions that I have about what we're even talking about when it comes to our brains and behaviors and all of that. And so I'm often like, I don't even know what to call that, because it doesn't necessarily feel like imposter syndrome, but it's almost like this when you see the big picture a lot of the time with neurodivergence, when you are connecting a lot of dots and having a really difficult time. Like, I feel like I've talked about this on the podcast too with other guests, like, how difficult it can be to have opinions in general, right, especially about politics or, you know, current events, or when I was the editor of my university newspaper, the hardest thing I ever had to do every week was to write an op ed column, because I could not take a stand on anything I could. I was constantly my own devil's advocate, and I loved being a devil's advocate, but also, like, had a really hard time ever feeling like I had arrived anywhere in terms of expertise, and I'm sort of like, Huh? I wonder what that's about. If it's, if it is imposter syndrome, or if there's something there about it's like, the galaxy, right? It's just like, the more you see, the more it expands.

Laura Kirbey 24:59
Yeah. Just it's never ending. Yeah, yeah. I totally agree. And I think I really feel like that. I feel like that about, well, first of all, like with the ADHD book, I don't know whether it's again, whether it's imposter syndrome, like, what gave me the right to write this book on ADHD? Because I don't consider myself to be an expert on ADHD. I'm an expert. I'm not, I'm not, not even an expert in myself yet. So I can't be an expert in ADHD. But I think you're right. I think with with ADHD and with PDA, that I always I write about, I don't see any of it as being conclusive. It's an insight into something which is so huge. It's a snapshot into my experience of something which, as you say, is enormous, and I but I do also feel that with neurodiversity, we've we've become, I think it's getting better, but we've got so much more to learn about it all, it's become very kind of, like, almost compartmentalized. Do you not mean like, you know? And this is what I really feel about the work that I do, particularly with assessments as well. Like, we do an autism assessment and then we do an ADHD assessment, and then we do a PDA assessment. And actually, the work that we do, we're trying to look at the hot, the young person as a whole, and make it much more holistic. But particularly with neurodiversity, I think we've scratched the surface of what it is and what it isn't. There's so much more that we need to learn about it, and it needs to evolve constantly,

Katy Weber 26:27
well. And I also think that it's become sort of trendy over the last few years, and the with that trendiness comes this eye roll from a lot of people, which is this, like, stop talking about it. Everybody thinks they have it, yeah. And I often wonder, you know, some of the researchers who, or you know, clinicians who have been in the trenches for 2030, years, what they think of the recent surge in adult diagnoses, especially if they're like, Finally, yes, we've been saying this all along. Or if they're just saying, like, Oh, gosh. Now you know, is this doing damage to the field of research? It almost reminds me of, like New York neighborhoods. Like, the minute you move to a New York neighborhood, anyone who moves there after you has made it uncool. But like, there are people who have lived there for, you know, 80 years, and are, you know, the people who created that neighborhood. But there's this sense of, I think there's even a word for it, if anybody knows what it is, where it's like, the minute you arrive at something, it starts diminishing. Its value starts diminishing, right? Yeah. So I'm curious, like, how do you think? What do you think about this? You know, the last five years, this climate of adult diagnoses, especially around self diagnosis, right? Because I agree with you, self diagnosis, I think, is valid. But I also feel like it comes with a big kind of clinical eye roll a lot of the

Laura Kirbey 27:53
time. Yeah, it does, yeah. And I mean, I describe it in the book as a tsunami like that. I think particularly with it with women. And I also talk about, in the book about how I almost I had, like, imposter syndrome, about my diagnosis as well, because I expected people to have exactly the reaction that you described, the eye roll of like, oh, yeah, another one. You know, because I got I had that with my son. So when my son was diagnosed certain family members and also some of my friends were like, really, like, Don't all boys behave like that sometimes. And I, I that really upset me, because it really undermined the difficulties that that James was having. So yeah, for myself as well, I didn't tell everyone straight away. I didn't do like a big sort of fanfare announcement, and I was quite cautious about who I told I don't know. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I don't know why anybody would pursue a diagnosis unless they thought that they were neurodivergent. I just don't you know, I think if you Why would you do that? Like it's not a badge of honor. I don't think it is even trendy. It's, it's, it's who you are. I think in terms of sort of research and kind of the clinical aspect of it, I think we have a focused on a very narrow description of how ADHD and autism present, there's this kind of feeling that it's looking at like how boys present. But I I've worked with boys males that don't even fit in that mold, and I think also the description is too narrow. So for example, the fact that RSD is not looked into as part of the diagnostic kind of assessment process, obviously you can experience a level of RSD and not be neurodivergent. But that the fact, the fact that it's estimated that 9899 Percent of people with ADHD experience it, but it's not included in the diagnostics, sort of tests and questionnaires and everything that that's just one example. So I think, I think the way that we assess needs to be really broadened, and it's it's also why I think so many girls are being missed as well, because even you know people that pick up on ADHD. So for example, going back to teachers, you know, a lot of the families that I work with will contact me and say, Oh, my child's teacher, usually their son, my son's teacher, has suggested that I contact you to explore potential diagnosis. A lot of the time, the way, way that girls present with ADHD, because teachers don't understand that it can present very differently. They're not picking up on it. So I personally, obviously think it's brilliant that women are now able to get a diagnosis. The most important reason is about understanding yourself, you know, and understanding like we were saying right at the beginning that you're not weird, that you're not there's nothing wrong with you. You just have a brain that that works differently. Yeah, that

Katy Weber 31:09
it was so well said. Thank you. I really appreciate it, because it is something I have a difficult time articulating. And I think it comes back to the that level of curiosity that we were talking about earlier, which is, you know, I've had so many parents come to me. I don't assess or diagnose, but I was like, I have parents who come to me who say, my daughter thinks she has ADHD. I don't think she does. She does great in school. She's very social. I don't know what she's talking about. I think she's just getting ideas from Tiktok. And I'm like, I don't hear any curiosity in your voice. You've come to me with already all these reasons why you don't think she meets your idea of what ADHD looks like. Did you ask her why she thinks she has ADHD? You know, that's the first question. What are you relating to, and is she getting good grades? But at what cost? That's the other question is, you know, is she exhausted at the end of the day, you know? And all of that, like starting to have those conversations about, like, Why do you like you said, you know, why is it that you feel a diagnosis would help, right? What is it you're relating to that is like, what are these struggles that so many times as women, we don't even realize we're entitled to call it a struggle, because it's been so normalized in terms of our experience as women, as mothers, as girls, like a lot of the times. Like, I remember when I was first diagnosed, there was just that, like, that kind of rolling grief of, like, I didn't even realize how much I was struggling until I was able, like, gave myself permission, to say yes, I was struggling. I just thought everybody was good at this, you know, I just thought that, like, this was a problem that everybody encountered, everybody else just knew how to solve it, and I didn't. And that that it was like, no, no, actually, this is something completely different. I don't know where I was going with that, but yeah, I think it's again, that that curiosity of, like, why are they researching it? Why do they feel so strongly about this, instead of just dismissing it all the time. Yeah. Now, in terms of broadening the assessments, what do you think that would even look like? Because I know, find the find the ADHD girls.org, they want every girl, I think every girl, at the age of seven in the US that their goal is to have every girl just to, like, kind of do an assessment to get a sense before they're even really struggling. What are some of those early markers where I'm like, that sounds like cool, but I was curious for you, with the emotional element too, what would that look like?

Laura Kirbey 33:30
Yeah, I mean, that sounds amazing to be able to do that. What I would love eventually, and I don't know whether we could. We'll ever get to this point. I really hope we do is that, you know, we're so much better now in terms of accepting people's sexuality and people's gender like, you know, it's people know who they are in terms of their sexuality, and it might take them a while to sort of to figure it out, but there's no test or assessment to work out if you know what your sexuality is, I would love for us to be able to have a society where we're just as accepting of people's neurotype. You know, if you think you're neurodivergent, and actually, I actually prefer to tell people that I'm neurodivergent rather than saying I'm ADHD and autistic. So I always think in terms of my neurotype, I definitely have really strong autistic traits as well as and I don't have an autism diagnosis, but I really identify as and it's, it's really interesting that when I got my ADHD diagnosis, it was like it peeled off certain layers, and then because I could be more authentic in terms of my ADHD like, it was like, my autism kind of like, rose to the surface, if that makes sense. And I definitely have a much stronger ADHD profile, if you like, than an autism profile for me, I don't, you know, I don't want to have to say. Well, I'm diagnosed ADHD, but I do also have autistic traits, you know, and I don't actually believe that even, you know, I should just say I'm autistic as well, because I saw a brilliant post yesterday, actually, that you can't be a little bit pregnant. You're either pregnant or you're not. So if you're autistic, you're autistic. So for me, I just want to be able to say to people, I'm neuro I'm neurodivergent. I shouldn't have to explain what my neurotype is made up of. So in terms of, like, broadening, I think that the only way we can do that is to stop the compartmentalization, right, the silo effect of like, you know, in the UK, you have to, as an adult, you have an most places, you have an ADHD assessment, and then you have an autism assessment, or, like, all the other way around, like, they're very separate, and they shouldn't be. We should be looking, in assessment terms, at a much broader picture, and then looking at all the other things that come into that as well. Like, you know, you could also be OCD, or you could have Tourette's and all these things we need to be like, looking at a much broader picture of the person, and then I think the other thing that needs to happen in terms of assessment is that, you know, here you get your diagnosis, and that's it, like, you get your diagnosis, and there's very little kind of, like, really personalized kind of support that that is then put in place. So what I think would be great is if you know, there was a way of like, assessing girls at seven, which sounds incredible, isn't it? Shouldn't it shouldn't end there. It shouldn't be like, Okay, these are the girls that have got ADHD, and these are the girls that haven't. It should be like, these girls have had ADHD, and we recognize that this girl really struggles with her self esteem and feelings of like not being good enough, and then that should then trigger additional support for that so she doesn't carry on down that road and then becomes an adult that still has low self esteem, and then will definitely develop like that imposter syndrome and that RSD, which can be so debilitating, and it can impact on so many areas of your life as well.

Katy Weber 37:07
Yeah, that's where I started to get really muddled, right? Gosh, I can't even remember where this metaphor comes from. Are you familiar with the orchid and the dandelion analogy for children, where it's like, there's sort of two types of children. There's the orchid, which is highly sensitive, and, you know, needs a lot of individualized attention and goes at their own pace, but is, you know, goes against the grain. And then there's the dandelion child, who you can plop anywhere, and they're fine, and they're resilient. You hand them to anybody, they're fine. And it's kind of how I've understood the brain, right in terms of these, the spectrum of the orchid to the dandelion, and how I've kind of started understanding even just neurodivergence, which is like, is a neurodivergent brain, because I'm very similar to you. Was diagnosed with ADHD, and then as the more I understood and the more I kind of unmasked, I started relating much more to the autism information, but haven't sought a formal diagnosis, mostly, as I've said many times on this podcast, because I'm terrified that the clinician is going to say no, and then I'm going to be like, well, now what? Right? And then I'm like, I don't know what I'm going to do with that information. Why am I so like? I think it's because my husband, when I had my children diagnosed, I, you know, I was diagnosed by my nurse practitioner, who's a psych NP, felt very confident with the diagnosis, but I felt like, did I fool her, like you were saying at the book, right? Did I somehow fool her into diagnosing me? And so when I wanted to get my children diagnosed, we went through a full psych eval ever, you know, with a private company, I wanted to make sure I did it right. They both got ADHD diagnoses. And then my husband just kind of flippantly one day, was like, Well, sure though, you know, you pay somebody enough money they'll give you whatever diagnosis you want. And I was like, that now lives in my brain, rent free forever, yeah. And so it's sort of like, You're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't. If I find somebody who will diagnose me, I will believe that I've paid them to diagnose me, right? And so then I'm kind of like, I'm not ready. And then I'm like, why am I even pathologizing this? You know? Then I go down that hole, relevant, like, where I'm like, why are we even diagnosing this at all? And, gosh, that tangent totally derailed my thought, Wait, what were we talking about? Now, I don't even remember. Oh, well, yeah, I'm sure it'll pop back. You said I'd love that too, right? Talking about the like, I used to try to chase thoughts, and one of the nice things about ADHD is now I'm like, it'll come back.

Laura Kirbey 39:36
Well, this is, this is what I describe in books, like the vapor, the vapor that, like, goes into your brain and it swirls around from it, and you've got, like, a few or so my cats just decided to join us. It swirls around in your brain, and you just got a few seconds to grab it and to catch it, and then if it doesn't come back, I just spent hours, like, trying to, like, catch it. I'm like, I definitely had a really good thought. There. There, and yeah, I do all the time, and that that's why we interrupt all the time, because I know that if I don't say what I want to say, sometimes I think, yeah, that's a really that's a really good point. And I'll I need to say, I need to say it, because I know that if I don't say it, I'll just go.

Katy Weber 40:14
So absolutely I know, well, when I first started the podcast, I would just write things down like I typed them as so I so as not to interrupt where. And oftentimes I'll go back and look at that and be like, I have no idea what that was. In reference to that I just typed out. But yeah, what the other thing I loved in your book was when you referred to your brain as, like the washing machine head, which I related to, it immediately thought of all the lost socks. Oh, my

Laura Kirbey 40:37
God, my washing. The washing is a disaster in this house. And yeah, there are so many that I have a basket upstairs, which is full of odd socks and just random things that need repairing and all just need chucking out. But there's so many odd socks, I don't understand what happens to them all. So my husband's always moaning about me for shooting the socks?

Katy Weber 41:05
Well, one of the things I've opted now that I'm working with teenagers in my practicum and internship for the next year, you know, one of the things I felt like I was going to swoop in and have all of this knowledge about neurodivergence, and I was going to spot the ADHD because, you know, working in, like, with high risk kids, I was like, it's got to be everywhere. You know, we're gonna we're talking about self harm and eating disorders. And I'm like, there has got to be undiagnosed neurodivergents everywhere. And one of the things I it's been a rude awakening, I think, for a lot of reasons. I think just working with non neurodivergent, affirming therapists has been really difficult, and even sort of naming what that is and isn't and what, what kind of techniques are working and aren't working, has been really interesting to parse. But I'm finding a lot of the kids who are diagnosed with ADHD already, because a lot of them are, you know, they talk about it like it's this terrible thing that they have, and like they've caught this illness, and it's sort of this reason why they can't do anything, and they're very kind of flip about it, and dismissive. And I sense, I don't know, I just sense this already in such a young person, this sense of hopelessness. You know, I wish for their sake that we took a much more strengths based approach to working with ADHD. And I think that's what I was the point I was trying to get to earlier with, with, like, parsing between the dandelion and the orchid. And like, how, you know, if we lived in as perfect society, where our brains were able to flourish and we were able to kind of name the supports that we needed, would we even have? ADHD, I mean, would we even certainly, would we wouldn't be pathologized with any kind of disorder. But, like, that's where it gets muddled for me, where I'm like, would we even have ADHD? Would we just be autistic? Would we just be neurodivergent? I don't know. But one thing that really bothers me with these kids is how often I hear them talking about their own ADHD in such kind of deflated like, Oh, I'm just such a fuck up. Like, even I thought maybe if they knew earlier, things would be better. And it doesn't feel like it is. Well, first

Laura Kirbey 43:12
of all, I guess the assessments are quite deficit based, so if they've been part of the assessment, they're going to be answering questions probably about all the things that they find really challenging. So the assessment can be quite a negative process. If you're just constantly be asked to report on the things that you struggle with. And I'm very aware of that when we when we send our reports back after assessment, you know, we we explain in there that they have to be deficit based, we have to write about the stuff that they find difficult for them to meet criteria. But within me also try and put lots of positives in the report. But I think again it, it comes back to, I think you're absolutely right. You know, there are certain environments that I am, I can be in now as an adult, that now that I have more autonomy, but there are certain environments where I where I can be truly authentic. And there are that environment includes the people that are in it. So there are certain times when I feel that my ADHD doesn't impact me in any way, because I can just be totally unmasked. I can be completely authentic. Nobody will judge me for that, or look down on me for that. But I think particularly for children, there probably aren't many environments for a lot of those children where they can be completely authentic, where they can it goes back to education. I'm not just sounds like I'm being really negative about education, not because I'm very passionate about education, but there is a lot of environments where children are told. ADHD, children are told, you know, they've been too loud, they need to stop moving around, that they think they're a fuck up because they've been judged against a standard that is just naturally, really difficult to attain when you have. ADHD, you know, if there's if the attainments were changed and we were judging people, you. On Success by their ability to, like, think outside the box and be creative and like, you know, care for other people and like, just a different level of different type of standards that we're judging children by, then they're not going to think that they're less than other people around them. And I guess also, it comes back to your point as well. How parents respond to their diagnosis as well. So if the parents are responding to the diagnosis going, oh, you know, you've got ADHD and it, you know, if they're if they're positive about it. So, like, I had a friend that messaged me the other day to say, finally got my ADHD diagnosis. I was like, Oh, congratulations. That's amazing. But not everybody has that mindset. You know, they might see it as a negative to be diagnosed with with this. And I think that also needs to change. We do need to focus. So one of the things that that I do when I work with young people, I always tell them I'm neurodivergent, and I also try and find people that they will respect and respond really positively to who are also neurodivergent. For them to be able to see that it's it can be a really positive thing. I would say that I've achieved so many really positive things in my life because of my ADHD, not despite it. So, you know, it's a mindset, isn't it? I guess it's, there's lots of facets to that. It's, it's not simple, but, yeah, I don't want any child or adult ever to feel that receiving a diagnosis is negative. I think it has to be seen as a positive. But then it's what you do after that diagnosis as well, which is so important, right?

Katy Weber 46:40
Yeah, well, and I feel for overwhelmed and overworked teachers as well, right? Because I feel like individual right? I mean, I feel like individual attention is often so integral to understanding neurodivergent support, and that's just impossible for large swaths of especially younger, you know, in younger classrooms, and I don't know how they deal with that, you know, but I just that idea, like you said, if a child is being this assumption that a child is being disruptive out of some kind of malice, you know, or that that's punishable behavior just feels to me so completely wrong. But again, I don't know what you're supposed to do in those moments when you have to make snap judgments really quickly. As a teacher, I don't I just thank them for their service.

Laura Kirbey 47:27
Yeah, no, they're amazing. But I just want to say, like, with my son, he went to a really lovely, like, preschool, and it was, it was almost like a sort of forest school. So it was just nursery, and it was like, you know, they were constantly outside. So he he would get to nursery, and they would put them in these, like, like, waterproof, like, overalls. And, you know, when he was three, they called me in and they said we were actually going to put James in the class with the older children, because his language is so good, and he's like, physically, he's keeping up with them. And he was so happy in that nursery, and you know, it was an incredible environment for him. And then within a few weeks of him starting at his his school, his primary school, I was called in, and it was like, he just won't sit still. He's he. We've had to make him, like, his, like, own little carpet space. He has to sit on this, like, square on the carpet. And I'm like, Do you know what? I don't think I've ever forced James to sit still. That, to me, proved that there was nothing wrong with James, but the environment was wrong for him. Like, as soon as that environment change? And he wasn't allowed to just run around, and, you know, he he didn't even have to eat his lunch at a table. He could, like, run around eating snacks and stuff. But then you go to school, and it's like you have to sit at a desk, you have to sit on the carpet, you have to sit you have to focus, you have to concentrate. And all of those things are just so difficult when you have ADHD. But I also do sympathize for teachers, because they've got, often, 30 other children in the class. So, you know, you can't, you know, they'll say, Well, I've got 3029, of the children. I can't just have one child wandering around on their own. It's, it's really difficult, really difficult for them.

Katy Weber 49:22
Yeah, you know, one of the things in the book that I felt like it was a sentiment that was repeated by a lot of the women in your book, was masking is exhausting. And I think that's another thing that's kind of difficult to even explain to ourselves until we have the language of a diagnosis in adulthood, which is like, why am I exhausted all the time? Like, not really understanding, like, I don't feel like I'm running around that much. I don't feel like I'm doing that much. Like, you know, I remember very early on, after my diagnosis, my therapist telling me that it's that feeling of like you have, you know, been walking around with a brick tied to your ankle your whole life, and you didn't realize it. And. And I think there was some of that, definitely that feeling of like needing to catch up, but also, I think it literally is just masking. It's just that holding it together in your little carpet spot all day long that leads to that unraveling right of that, like I just am so exhausted, or, you know, I've called it like with my kids at school. I call it white knuckling too, right the way that they just fall apart emotionally at the minute they come home. Yeah, and it really is true. Like, I'm just curious if you is your book is such a wonderful primer for somebody who has just been diagnosed, and there's some really great tips in there for just, like, how do you begin to start unmasking? Almost like, what's the first thing I'm trying to think of? Like, what are the first things I did to really make that feeling of exhaustion less intense? Maybe it is, like I said, just naming it. But like, what does unmasking feel like to you.

Laura Kirbey 51:01
First of all, I had to recognize when I was doing it, and then when I realized when I was doing I realized I was doing it so much like, you know, professionally, I would pretend not, yeah, pretend I was some something that I wasn't. And then you're not only masking, but you've also got the imposter syndrome as well. So it's like a double whammy of like, I've got to pretend to be this person because I'm not actually good enough to do it as as me. So I think one of the things that's been really important to me is, is finding people that I can be really authentic with and also advocating for myself better, so I don't put myself in situations where I know I'm going to have to mask. So I didn't actually put this in the book, because this happened not that long ago, just at the beginning of the year, I was speaking at a conference quite a long way from home. I had to stay in a hotel, and it was a it was a conference for senior leaders in education, and they invited me to the dinner that night with all these teachers and educators. So of course, ADHD, oh yeah, go, you know. And then they sent me the menus, and I chose my food, and then I spent hours deliberating about what to wear, because I can't just pack I have to, like, plan it all out. And I wasn't nervous about my my talk. I was very happy doing the presentation. And then I went up to my room, and I could just feel the anxiety start to creep up and up and up, but then the people pleasing kicks in. I'm like, No, I've told them I'm going to be there, and I've chosen my food, and I don't want to upset anybody. And then I went downstairs to go into this dinner, and that I was literally met by a sea of people. And I stood there on my own. No one spoke to me. I stood there on my own for about three or four minutes, and then I just thought, I'm not doing it. I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to go in that room. I'm going to I'll have to sit with people I don't know, and I will have to perform all night. I'll have to be the professional Laura. I won't be able to just be me. I can't be authentic. I can't be kind of like, I can't be the sort of person that I would be if I was sat with my my husband or my family or my friends, where I can be Laura. And I just went and found somebody, and I just said, I'm really sorry. I I'm I've changed my mind. I don't. I don't want to go in the room and have the dinner. And the other thing was, there was like, a quiz, and I was like, oh my god, it's just going to be awful. I ended up eating on my own in a room in this hotel. And then I was I went to bed, and I thought, I'm so glad that I did that like I'm so glad that I now have the the confidence to actually self advocate and say, No, I'm not doing that. But the thing is, it's, it's still a work in progress, because what I need to learn to do is the next time I get the invite is to say no, at that point, you're constantly learning, aren't you, but in terms of masking, you have to learn to be authentic. You know, I did a book launch in London the week the book came out, and it was so important to me that I was authentic at that book launch. Now, my mum recently died, and I've really struggled with her loss. It's been the hardest thing I've ever been through, and I have to tell people at the start of the launch, I have to and I have to thank my mum as well, because my mum was clearly ADHD, which has become even more apparent since she died, because we found about 100 pairs of shoes, and this is no word of a lie, we found a full dinner service in a wheelbarrow. The God, there's so many. My mum was so ADHD, and actually

Unknown Speaker 55:05
her gift to you. Oh,

Laura Kirbey 55:07
I've been I've inherited so many of her, her characteristics, but all amazing. My mom was an incredible woman. So I wanted to thank my mum and and I had to be authentic. I had to say to people at this book launch, I am not okay, like I can't stand up here tonight in front in a room full of neurodivergent women. Who you you're all ADHD, you're probably all really empathetic. I'm not going to stand at the front of the room and pretend that I am I'm okay because I'm not. And I had the most beautiful reaction to that. And I did. I cried, you know, I stood in the front of this room in front of all these people, and I cried, and there are other women crying in the audience, and then I have people coming up to me at the end saying, Thank you for allowing us to be so authentic tonight. You know, you being so authentic. You know, allowed us to feel that we were in a really authentic environment. And I just think that's so important and so empowering to be able to do that. So I think you know, if you do feel that you're that if you can recognize when you're masking, I think if you can recognize where you're doing it, who you're doing it, with, why you're doing it, not just the impact of that, but the reasons that it's happening. And try and find ways to, like, remove yourself from from that environment. I think that's that is just so important to do that. And I think the other thing that I've learned as well is that when I have advocated for myself like that, it's quite scary when you first start doing it, but that people are usually far more respectful of that than if you mask, and your behavior then has maybe a negative impact. Because, for example, if I'd stood at that book launch and masked my way through the night and pretended that I'm okay when I'm not, people would have picked up on that. People would have thought, Why? Why she, you know, she's not, she's not being herself. Or, you know, if I had gone to that dinner, for example, I think probably, if I'm really honest about how I would have coped in that situation socially, I probably would have had a few drinks, and then I would have beaten myself up afterwards, thinking, oh my god, like you know, you probably acted a bit drunk, or you that's not very professional. So every time I have advocated for myself and allowed myself to unmask the impact of it, 99% of the time has been really, really positive, compared to, like, the longer term effect of of masking and not being authentically me well, and

Katy Weber 57:57
even just thinking of you standing up There at the podium crying, you're right, it's such a beautiful, vulnerable moment, and I'm sorry for your loss, but I also feel like, what a gift to your nervous system to be able to kind of be safe and in that release around and I think it's why being around other neurodivergent people feel so, yeah, comfortable, because it really is that it's that unmasking, but I think it's also it's like we speak this language or something I don't again, hard to describe, but I think there is something that it really feels like we're somehow telling our nervous systems that we are safe, and that, you know, like thinking about just distress tolerance and that ability to really, kind of say, like, Yeah, I'm going to cry in this moment. I'm going to be authentic. This is what I'm going to do. And that's fine. And you know what I often say to myself too, when I'm when I'm struggling with like, those that feeling of like, yeah, no, this is not happening when I might have in the past, pushed through is, you know, now, now I tell myself, you're modeling boundaries Absolutely. Yeah, good for you, modeling boundaries. Yeah. Oh, that is again. Thank you. That's a beautiful way of describing it, and I think the listeners of this podcast will be I think it's a gift to them to hear your descriptions of it. And as I said earlier, your book is such a wonderful delight. And I'm so glad it's out there in the world. And I hope women who have just been diagnosed and are thinking, Now what? Oh, my goodness, I've got washing machine head, you know, can can sit down with it and have some of those just that validating, grounding moments. It's just, it's wonderful. And I think, you know, if you needed a reason for why me? Why did I write this book? I have at least conjoined the chorus of thank yous that you your distinct way of putting it out

Laura Kirbey 59:49
there. Oh, thank you. That means so that that does me, thank you and I, you know, it's quite scary putting a book out there, particularly when you have crippling our. Seen it at times in imposter syndrome, and I'm like, Oh, I'm gonna get the off bad review. You know, it's not gonna, not everyone's gonna like it. But again, I'm, I'm focusing on the fact that if one person, if one person reads this book and it makes them feel better about themselves, then it's, it's been 1,000,000% worth doing. So, yeah, thank you.

Speaker 1 1:00:19
Well, thank you for joining me, Laura, it's been a real pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Katy Weber 1:00:24
Oh, just to recap, so we didn't talk about past, I apologize. I will talk, hopefully I'll give people links to it, which is your day job at past is? Where is it

Laura Kirbey 1:00:38
positive assessment, support and training.

Katy Weber 1:00:41
So I'll have a link to that website there, and to your Instagram. Is there anywhere else that people can reach out and find you?

Laura Kirbey 1:00:48
I've got a very busy Facebook page. Okay, great. You just put in, I think you just put in positive assessment, support and training past and it'll, it'll come up. I can send you the link if you need me to send

Katy Weber 1:01:00
it to you. I think I already have it. I'll make sure, so it'll be in the show notes for sure. Well, wonderful. Well, thanks again. It's been a real pleasure chatting with

Laura Kirbey 1:01:08
you. Yeah, thank you. I'm sorry about the cat as well. Yeah,

Katy Weber 1:01:11
no, what a welcome guest. He's beautiful.

Laura Kirbey 1:01:15
He does like to get involved. You.

Katy Weber 1:01:23
There you have it. Thank you for listening, and I really hope you enjoyed this episode of the women and ADHD podcast. If you'd like to find out more about me and my coaching programs, head over to women and adhd.com if you're a woman who was diagnosed with ADHD and you'd like to apply to be a guest on this podcast, visit women and adhd.com/podcast guest, and you can find that link in the episode show notes. Also, you know, we ADHD ers crave feedback, and I would really appreciate hearing from you the listener. Please take a moment to leave me a review on Apple podcasts or audible. And if that feels like too much, and I totally get it, please just take a few seconds right now to give me a five star rating or share this episode on your own social media to help reach more women who maybe have yet to discover and lean into this gift of neurodivergency, and they may be struggling and they don't even know why. I'll see you next time when I interview another amazing woman who discovered she's not lazy or crazy or broken, but she has ADHD and she's now on the path to understanding her neurodivergent mind and finally, using this gift to her advantage. Take care till then you.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai