Terry Matlen: Sensory sensitivity and the queen of distractionNov 06, 2023
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“I had significant anxiety as a child. I had school phobia, I didn't want to go to school. I had no idea it was related to undiagnosed, untreated ADHD.”
Terry Matlen, LMSW, ACSW, is a psychotherapist, author, consultant, coach, and an internationally recognized expert on ADHD in women.
She is the author of the award-winning book, "The Queen of Distraction” and "Survival Tips for Women with AD/HD", and runs www.ADDconsults.com, an international online resource serving women with ADHD, where she offers one-on-one ADHD consultations; www.QueensOfDistraction, an online coaching program for women with ADHD, and www.GetADHDhelp.com, an online ADHD directory.
With over 25 years of experience helping women with ADHD, Terry is a sought-after presenter at conferences and webinars, and has authored hundreds of articles.
I had lots of questions for Terry and pick her brain about all sorts of things, including emotional intensity and ADHD, especially when it comes to the anxiety around what’s currently happening in the world. We talk about sensory sensitivities, self-regulation and self-care as women and mothers, and I ask Terry what she thinks about the recent increase in ADHD diagnoses.
It was a real pleasure to be able to chat with an expert in the field who has such curiosity and generosity and energy!
Terry Matlen 0:00
By focusing on the things that we do well, and using some of these things, like you just described, will help. But it doesn't eliminate the problem. And that's where we have to really put some work into acceptance, self acceptance, and going with our ADHD instead of pushing it away and identifying as something's wrong with me, something's wrong with me.
Katy Weber 0:25
Hello, and welcome to the women and ADHD podcast. I'm your host, Katy Weber. I was diagnosed with ADHD at the age of 45. And it completely turned my world upside down. I've been looking back at so much of my life, school, jobs, my relationships, all of it with this new lens. And it has been nothing short of overwhelming. I quickly discovered I was not the only woman to have this experience. And now I interview other women who liked me discovered in adulthood, they have ADHD and are finally feeling like they understand who they are and how to best lean into their strengths, both professionally and personally. Hello there, you know, I promised I had some fantastic guests lined up for you. And today's guest definitely fits the bill. But before we begin, I would like to share with you this review from a listener named Carrie on the Apple podcast platform in South Africa. It's entitled Thank you. I've just been diagnosed at the age of 38. My son was diagnosed with inattentive ADHD first just a few weeks ago, and I started seeing so many similarities, but never in a million years did I ever consider it was ADHD. I've been diagnosed with depression and anxiety in the past. But this is all making so much sense. Now it's overwhelming, and your podcast and guests have me nodding along constantly. It's so helpful to be able to make sense of it. And it's actually providing a great deal of comfort and calm when I'm overwhelmed and having a moment. Thank you for all this valuable insight, Carrie from Cape Town. Well, thank you, Carrie from Cape Town, I'm so thrilled for your son that he has such an amazing mother who is going to help him grow up understanding and appreciating his brain, and hopefully never thinking of himself as broken or stupid or lazy. The more we can understand ourselves and help our kids and change the world view of neuro divergence, the better off we will all be. And I'm so glad you found this podcast. And I'm really grateful for the time you took out of your day to write that review. Your feedback makes me so happy. It really means the world. And now here is the part where I asked the rest of you that if you've been a listener of this podcast, and you've found it at all helpful and you've been meaning to leave a review, you just haven't gotten around to it. This is your reminder to head to Apple podcasts or audible and you can now leave feedback on individual episodes on Spotify. And if writing a review feels like too much and I get it you could also just quickly hit the five stars. In fact, why don't you just pause right now and do it. I promise we'll wait for you. Okay, here we are at episode 162 in which I interview Terry Matlin. Terry Matlin is a psychotherapist, author, consultant Coach and an internationally recognized expert on ADHD and women. She wrote the award winning book The Queen of distraction, as well as the book survival tips for women with ADHD. She runs AD D consults.com, an international online resource serving women with ADHD where she offers one on one ADHD consultations. She also runs queens of distraction.com, an online coaching program for women with ADHD and she created get ADHD help.com, an online ADHD directory with over 25 years of experience helping women with ADHD. Terry is a much sought after presenter at conferences and webinars and has authored hundreds of articles. As is typical. In my interviews. I had lots of questions for Terry and I pick her brain about all sorts of things, including emotional intensity and ADHD, especially when it comes to the anxiety around what's currently happening in the world. We also talk about sensory sensitivities, self regulation, and self care as women and mothers and I asked Terry what she thinks about the recent increase in ADHD diagnoses. It was a real pleasure to be able to chat with such an expert, Terry has such curiosity and generosity and energy. She really is the queen of distraction. So here is my interview with Terry. All right, I am honored today to have as my guest, Terry Battlin. Thank you so much for joining me, Terry.
Terry Matlen 4:42
Thank you for having me. You're doing a terrific job, and I'm so excited to be part of it. Oh my goodness. Thank
Katy Weber 4:47
you. I was so excited when you reached out. I mean, this is really you've been on the top of my bucket list. So I'm curious, did you how did you hear about the podcast?
Terry Matlen 4:58
You know, I have ADHD Katy, so I can't remember. I can't remember where I started hearing your podcasts I recognized your name from you know your work in the past, but I wasn't familiar with the podcast. So I heard somebody might have been, it might have been series sold ins episode. And then I jumped on your website and Wow, you got some great guests. And I'd love to be a part of that.
Katy Weber 5:21
I wondered if she had mentioned it because I had had a conversation with her recently. It was shortly after that conversation that you reached out and I know you guys are good friends. So I was just curious. Anyway. So what I would love to hear from you first, if you I'm sure you've shared the story many times, but if you'll indulge me for the sake of my own listeners, I would love to hear kind of about your own ADHD diagnosis in terms of how old you were when it happened. And what were the things that were happening in your life that made it click for you that you thought okay, I should really look into this.
Terry Matlen 5:56
Well, like many women with ADHD, I was a late diagnosed woman with ADHD. I was always kind of scattered, disorganized, I procrastinated. But I had no idea what that was about in my day. It was unheard of it was unknown that adults could have ADHD. But the story is my daughter have two daughters, who are now young adults, my youngest, had a very significant illness, she had an encephalopathy, which means a brain issue of brain infection and after a vaccine reaction, and she was extremely ill, and we didn't know if she would survive. So that was no, that was really frightening. But she didn't come through it with 100% of her abilities, they didn't all return. So one of the things that was very problematic was severe ADHD, severe. And it was to the point where I had to have another adult in the house with me, she was a toddler. I had to have another adult once you read, learn how to walk and all those things. She didn't walk, she ran, she climbed, she got into things, severe ADHD. And in my training, I'm a clinical social worker and my training many years ago, nobody talked about ADHD even in children. So this was something brand new for me to try and figure out. How do I help my daughter? How do I, you know, prevent her from doing all these things that were extremely dangerous. So I started reading now back in the day, this was in the late 1980s, I think was a late. Yeah, so the late 80s. When she got sick, there was very little, very little out there on on books to read articles. And we really didn't have the internet going yet. It's so hard. I found one book an adult with ADHD. It was a clinical book. But I think Dr. Lin Weiss. And I started reading that I don't know why I just I mean, I had no no sense at the time that I might be having some problems with this. But I was looking for help for her. So I read this book. And then I had this aha moment like, oh my gosh, that sounds like people I know in my family, not my kids so much. Of course they are. But these are adults. And then I had this huge aha moment. But anyhow, I did find a book on how to help kids with ADHD didn't help me too much because the severity of her ADHD, but I was very curious about the adult thing. There was just a little, you know, there was a little, but there was so much there was so much in that book that piqued my interest. And I reached out to a psychologist who happened to be local to me, and one of the few clinicians who understood and treated and evaluated adults with ADHD. So by that time I was in my early 40s, I think I was 41, maybe 42 and went to him. And sure enough, I got the diagnosis. So that's been years ago, years ago.
Katy Weber 8:55
Well, I'm curious. I mean, I feel like a universal experience for those of us who were diagnosed well into adulthood is that feeling like your whole life flashes before your eyes, right? That feeling like, I can't believe how many random struggles I had all fall under this one little umbrella or big umbrella of ADHD and it felt like for me, it was just this roller coaster of excitement that I had this answer. And then the grief that how did nobody know about this? Like it really felt like the signs were there all along, especially going back and looking at my report cards. You know, just seeing the signs of it everywhere and really feeling like the life I could have lived right. You know, really feeling very a lot of sadness and grief around the diagnosis. So I'm curious, not only what was your reaction, but also looking back over the course of your life. What were some of those things that really stood out to you where you were like, oh, yeah, the signs, the signs were there all along.
Terry Matlen 10:00
But signs were there. But I also as a child had significant anxiety issues. I had school phobia I didn't want to go to school. And I don't know how much of that would be related to the Undiagnosed, untreated ADHD. But what's different about my story, although I understand that most women, especially late diagnosed, do go through this phase. And I wouldn't say it's a phase because it can come back and forth, even if you've been in therapy for your ADHD. And you go through the grieving process and understanding, this is the life I could have had. And now here I am, 3040 50. And up, I didn't go through a grieving process. However, I did go through a long period of time where I was in denial, because I couldn't first of all, you know, it still was so misunderstood back then. I didn't know anybody who had ADHD. I had never heard of it in adults. So I was going through this dinner. No, no, it's not that it's not that it's because I had anxiety, I still have, you know, some anxiety issues, or because I missed a lot of school as a kid. Because I was so frightened to go, oh, it's because of that, you know, I just didn't catch on, because I didn't I missed so much schooling. So I went to at least if I could remember at least two other clinicians to get their opinion, do I really have ADHD. So that was my big thing was denial. Once it was confirmed by two other clinicians. I took it and ran, I didn't go through the grieving, I didn't go through what I missed out. I understood what my current problems were, what my past problems were. But as a clinician, I decided, now that my my life has changed in such a way. For me, it was in a good way. Now I know why I can't cook dinner. Now I know why my house is cluttered. Now I know why I procrastinate with paperwork, and all that sort of thing. I felt felt that as a clinician, now, I could step up and change my whole perspective of what I wanted to do as a clinician, and help men and women started off with men and women with ADHD. So in a way, it empowered me. That's more unusual, I believe, from what I've experienced working with women, especially with ADHD, mine was, maybe it's because I have the clinical background, and wanted to use my skills in helping other women. That's been my focus. That's not a great word for me to use. That has been my focus for the last 25 years, because once I understood what it was, my life took off, I still have struggles I did back then I still do now, but I have a different lens. And now I can help other women who are going through grief who are going through anger who are going well, why didn't my parents take me to a therapist? Why didn't you know? Why didn't they understand me? Why didn't I understand me? So my mind is just a little bit of a different story. I will say that as a child, you know, I was extremely disorganized. If you had opened up my closet, my childhood bedroom closet, the diagnosis would have been right there.
Katy Weber 13:07
I think that the why? You know why that question is so important to me. And why I always ask it is because it feels like you know this, there's so much of that pushback around the fact that this is a fad, or, you know, so much of their doubt for us in adulthood of am I just making excuses? Am I really you know, is this actually ADHD? Or is this something else like a lot of the that internal doubt and confusion? I think it's helpful for us to, to look back and think like, No, this was, this was a personality that I was born with. And, you know, this is how it manifested over certain periods of my life where it ebbed and flowed. And I you know, feels like a game of snakes and ladders a lot of the time in terms of like, feeling really great. And feeling like I've got these answers and I've got these tactics and these strategies and then falling back into old patterns or losing a sense of consistency and falling back. So it's like, yeah, I feel like it is so important for us in terms of our journey and our and our, like, understanding of how ADHD looks in our life in terms of this diagnosis and why I think so many of us don't think of this as a as a pathological diagnosis, right? We it's really an incredible it's a huge why it's like a window opening for us. And it really allows us to kind of move forward and say, Oh, now I know now I can figure out the right strategies for me and you know, one of the reasons why the queen of distraction is so popular and I think so wonderful of a book is that it answers so many of those now what questions in such a helpful way which is really, you know, goes beyond the philosophy of ADHD or just the like, take meds, but really practical. Like I think of Uteri every time I move my hangers from one side to the other in my closet in terms of what was the last time I wore this? You know, like those really really practical answers that can be so life changing for so many of us who have struggled?
Terry Matlen 15:05
Well, thank you for that. And the whole idea with a book was to reach out to explain to women who feel broken and lost that you don't need to feel that way that especially with therapy, and I'm a big proponent of therapy and coaching, and medication if it's warranted, that there are answers, but we have to start from within ourselves. So you know, I played out this scenario of two friends, one is hyperactive, one is inattentive. And, you know, it plays out very differently in the book, and in real life. But we don't have to, you know, just keep the raid in ourselves and saying, I just don't know where to begin. And it doesn't solve books, therapy, coaching doesn't solve how our brain works, it works with our brain. And so we're going to have these ups and downs. So here I am now, you know, way into this whole thing, not just in a personal way, but in a professional way, I still falter. You know, I still, my house is still cluttered. But I have gotten to the point where I don't identify as being ADHD, I have an ADHD brain. That's the difference, I think, is that I've gotten to the point, in my old age that I don't understand, I don't identify that way anymore. I am a woman. I'm a mother, I'm a partner, a wife, I've got you know, the kids, I'm an artist, I'm a clinician, I'm a musician, all that focusing on the things that we do well, and using some of these things, like you just described, will help. But it doesn't eliminate the problem. And that's where we have to really put some work into acceptance, self acceptance, and going with our ADHD instead of pushing it away and identifying as something's wrong with me, something's wrong with me. Everybody has something going on. And I hear a lot about women who say, Well, my, my husband or my partner, whoever, they don't get me, and I remind them, they have something to that they're dealing with everybody does.
Katy Weber 17:04
Right. Yeah. And I think that's something that we talk about a lot on this podcast, in terms of the, you know, a lot of ADHD traits are looked at as character flaws, but especially for women, so much of this comes down to how we were socialized. And so what is, you know, why are we holding shame around some of these behaviors like the clutter or not wanting to do chores, right? And really questioning like, Well, why would you want to do chores, their chore? Like, of course, they're boring, because
Terry Matlen 17:31
if they were, you know, when you have ADHD, the we're one of the worst things that can happen is to be bored. So yeah, those are boring things. You know?
Katy Weber 17:39
Gosh, two questions. First of all, you had mentioned about not feeling often, like ADHD defines you. And so, you know, one of the questions I have a lot of still much more earlier in my diagnosis, but I still don't really have answers for it, which is like, what when you talk about ADHD, do you think about a neuro divergent brain that we are born with, and that is the ADHD and then there are times where it we really might struggle in certain environments, like school, or boring jobs, or that kind of thing, where, where our symptoms become worse, or, and there's times where we might really, you know, really thrive with an ADHD brain and those moments and but it's the brain that we're talking about, or when you talk about ADHD, do you feel like ADHD is, is the traits that are exhibited, and as negative so that if you're not struggling, your ADHD is like, less or less severe?
Terry Matlen 18:38
So I think what you're saying, Is it a medical model versus a trait is that what I'm hearing is the question.
Katy Weber 18:43
Yeah, or almost or not? Yeah, like an identity. So there's
Terry Matlen 18:47
two, you know, at least two schools of thought there is you're born with an ADHD brain, and it's a biochemical, developmental, whatever way we were born and other clinicians and researchers and writers will say no, it's a trait. Others take it to the extent of saying it's a gift. I'm not in that category. I don't think it's a gift. I think it's a combination. I think that we're born with a predisposition for having ADHD. And I think for some people, it comes out quickly and in a big raging way. And other people might be you know, we have just like anything else, you can have mild depression, severe depression, chronic depression, with ADHD. So we have the predisposition, it either comes out or doesn't generally comes out in some way. Depending on how you're raised. If you're raised with parents who are very structured and help you and are very involved, then maybe your ADHD won't be so devastating. As a trade. I would see it more like that if you've had the right kind of upbringing or the right kind of help and then maybe you have a milder form of ADHD that you were born with. And you've learned strategies, and your life is the type of life that helps you with your or ADHD. So some kinds of occupations. Some kinds of situations you have in your family aren't very add friendly. So I think it can go either way. I look at myself as someone who was born with an ADHD brain, it's rampant in my family. I'm also very, very interested in the connection between trauma and ADHD. I think a lot of people with early trauma look like they have ADHD or they have both ADHD and trauma. Very interested in the work of Dr. Dr. Gabor Ma Tei is pretty controversial. In the Add world. He happens to be a friend of mine, and I've been following his work for many, many, many, many years. And he has some interesting things to say about how does ADHD show itself? So I think I'm I've got one one foot in each of these options that you're presenting.
Katy Weber 20:53
It's a very therapist answer it depends, right?
Terry Matlen 20:58
How do you feel about it? Tell me your thoughts.
Katy Weber 21:05
I love the Gabor Matta is willing to touch this subject. You know, I find it somehow very comforting and validating that the clinical world is so undecided about ADHD because I feel like I am so endlessly confused by it. And so I love the fact that anyone is willing to pull up their boots and wade into the muck because it's that curiosity, right? It's that it's the puzzle solving nature in us to want to really figure out what this is.
Terry Matlen 21:35
And I would worry about people who say it's only this or it's only this. So someone who says it's only trauma or it's only you're born with a huge genetic, it's a genetic thing. And you know, if your parent headed even have a 60% chance of having ADHD yourself. So you know, I think that there's room, there's room to waddle and take in. And maybe the most important thing is well, how does it work for you?
Katy Weber 22:01
Exactly, you know, what, what works for you. And I think a lot of the treatment for ADHD is successful treatment for anyone, right with executive dysfunction. So as long as it's helping and it's working, then then that's where this diagnosis can be so helpful. Having seen this, right, this is a relatively huge influx of diagnoses in the last few years of adult women especially, what do you make of it? Do you feel like it's a course correction? Or do you feel like it is a fad? Or do you feel like there's possibility for Miss diagnoses? You know, there was that I don't know if you saw that article recently in the psychiatric times. But it's just feels like every couple months, there's some eye rolling article that comes out about how, Oh, everybody thinks this is ADHD. And it's not, but there's not a lot of answers as to what it could be instead. So I'm curious having seen the rise of tic toc and diagnosis, what, what are your thoughts on this?
Terry Matlen 23:06
That's a great question. Katie. That's a really good question. So I think there's a lot of parts to it. First of all, we had COVID COVID. change the lives of men and women, kids, everybody. And I think so. I don't know if you want me to focus more on women or adults. So
Katy Weber 23:24
I mean, there's gonna Yeah, there's been a huge rise in both, I think, right, just an adult diagnosis in general. Yeah. Right. So
Terry Matlen 23:30
if if you have this predisposition of having ADHD, and you didn't know you had it and you weren't diagnosed and treated, but you know, you've had your own challenges. Now your whole life has changed. People with ADHD often don't do well, with change, we don't transition too easily. When we learn about how to help our kids, we need to remind ourselves that it helps us as well. So you warn your child, hey, in about five minutes, we're gonna have to stop playing the video game and get into homework time, we have to do the same thing with ourselves with COVID. And so many people working from home, losing that structure, losing that structure for a lot of people who don't have ADHD was difficult. But you throw in ADHD, and you no longer have external forces keeping you on target, you know, your report is due at 115. We're going to have a meeting, or three and all those things. So now we're left to our own devices. So I think COVID had a huge emphasis on getting people thrown off so badly that they did reach out for help and found out they have ADHD. So they're just COVID. And the world is changing so quickly, you know, every seems like every couple of months. There's another horrible thing happening in the world. And, again, people with ADHD, this is something that Gabor Ma Tei talks about No, no, I totally agree with. He believes that people who have ADHD are born with a sensitive nature. And that's kind of what I see we hear about Dr. Dadson and his rejection, I always get this wrong rejection sensitivity, dysphoria. And that's seen in people who are sensitive. And that's what it is. It's being sensitive. So if you have a sensitive nature, and most of the people I know with ADHD I do myself am particularly sensitive. These changes, whether they're large, like what's happening now in our world, or minor or something in between there, it's going to hit us more deeply, more, more strongly than someone who may be able to dish you know, brush it off a little bit easier. So then we have these reactions, we have these reactions might be like more severe and, like, why is it that it's bothering me? And then things start to come together. And we find out that we have ADHD. So the tic tac thing? I'll tell you something I I've heard, you know, I heard that there's a lot of misinformation about tic tac, and I got curious, because if you have ADHD, you're curious. That's a given. So I jumped down to tic tac and I saw exactly what they were talking about these, you know, 1819 20 year olds, I have ADHD because I didn't put my shoes away, whatever. So I open up an account. And I have a tic tac account where I'm trying to dispel myths, misinformation, because like you said, so many people are now coming forward with I think I have ADHD, yes, I have ADHD, well, just because your your shoes are put away, or you're late making dinner a couple nights a week does not mean you have ADHD. You have to go as you know, through a very intensive workup with a knowledgeable clinician, before you can be identified or diagnosed with having ADHD, not by a tick tock account. So there's that. And people have more time to be on tic tac. But I am worried I'm worried about the influx of people being diagnosed and treated because I'm not sure. I am not sure. I think that there's a lot of answers. Another one is there's a whole lot we have stats to show. I think Ross Barkley did it maybe I don't know who of how many people are not identified way more or not identified than are identified. And I think what you're referring to that study, if it's the same one, I read that now they think more adults with have ADHD, that percentage just went up to over 3% of the population. I personally think there's more. I think we're still at that level where people are not being identified and treated. And these kinds of external things that are happening could bring them out. And they're going for help. But the coordinates I believe it is Ross Barkley, the great majority of people are not being identified. That's a big problem. One of the things by work has been is to try and educate clinicians, like when you hear someone come in, especially a woman, I'm depressed, I can't get it together. Well, they get antidepressants. You've probably heard this story. Many times from your guests. That was my life. Yeah, there you go. Oh, you're depressed? Well, let's put you on antidepressants. Bye, bye. See you in three months for your next med checkup. person come a woman especially comes back. I'm still depressed doctor. All right, well, let's up your dosage, or maybe add a second kind of antidepressant or maybe have anxiety? Well, let's say that you come back, I'm still depressed doctor. So we're, we've made some impact on clinicians to better understand it, but we're still so far away from teaching them what to look for. I believe everybody who walks into a clinicians office should be screened for ADHD. Now it's just been passed recently in the US, I believe that now they're being screened for depression. Well, if this depressed, you need to look for underlying ADHD. We're not there yet. Yeah. So I can't retire. And retire?
Katy Weber 29:00
Well, one of the things, you know, William Dodson, in the last ADHD conference, last year had talked about depression and anxiety as pre diagnoses that he felt like almost all of the ADHD clients he had seen over the years who had or had to, how do I word this? I'm getting jumbled. Basically, I think he was saying, if you have been depressed if you've been diagnosed with depression and anxiety, it's almost a guaranteed precursor for ADHD, those combinations of depression and anxiety diagnosis, he says, you know, if that's been your experience, look into ADHD because there's such a correlation between those two. And I often what I often feel like I would add to that if your clients are asking questions like what's wrong with me? That's a huge flag. That confusion, right, that confusion and the frustration and the inability to move forward that exists prior to an ADHD diagnosis, not just the despod Do you have depression, but the real like that frustration element that that I certainly always had with, like you said with the depression where I was like, well, if I'm this depressed on medication, how bad am I going to be off of it right? Or if maybe we need to up the dose, but like always feeling like those, those diagnoses never fit.
Terry Matlen 30:19
And here's what makes it more confusing for the clinician is that people who are significantly depressed can't do daily things, they have a hard time getting out of bed, they have a hard time, taking care of kids taking care of work issues, you know, home thing things at home, it can become very complicated. So the other piece to this would be what we talked about a minute ago, if you're not getting better, and into the presence, that's another huge red flag. And this is what I hear so many times. And this What's wrong with me? I like, there's a book called, I forgot who wrote it, maybe, you know, it's titled something like, it's well he says in the book, it's not what's wrong with me. It's what happened to me. And that's where you get the Gabor, my talk about some other people who are involved in trauma. That's another clue. You know, what happened to me? Yeah, and I don't hear that from people who are depressed so much as we can't do daily activities, we can't do things that other people seem to be able to do. That is a really good point. Like, what's wrong with me?
Katy Weber 31:25
Yeah, right. And also just questioning. I think why trauma is such an important question to have with around ADHD is, you know, how do we even begin to determine how much trauma a life undiagnosed has given us right in terms of how we've been treated by teachers, or how we were, you know, that negative comments of children and all of that, like, how do we even begin to quantify how much trauma we made, it may be experienced by having a neurodivergent brain and being undiagnosed? Exactly. I
Terry Matlen 32:03
mean, we think too many people think that trauma means you got shot, or you were raped, or some horrible, horrible, horrible things. But trauma can also mean, you weren't heard. Growing up as a child, your parents didn't understand you, your needs weren't met, because they didn't listen to you, they didn't understand you, because you did have this difference in your in your brain brain differences and abilities at the time. And that is a trauma. People don't think of those things as being trauma. But if you have a lack of attachment and bonding with your mother, friends, or you know, a parent, that's traumatized, and because now you don't have the tools, you need to grow up and feel secure and capable. And you just, you know, you're thrown this is especially if you have a predisposition, I'm saying it's those you over over the cart, that now you're really floundering, and then your self esteem goes down to zero. All these things are combined. Just think about if all of this is on your mind, or even at an unconscious level, how are you going to have the energy and the ability to file your papers or look for your tax papers to get that done in time? We're just laden with all of these layers of difficulties and challenges which start early on early on. I think that's a big, big problem we're not looking at enough is how were you raised? How did people understand you? What were your parents like when you didn't do well in school? Were they rallying for you? Did they help you? Did they set up strategies to help you with your work, your homework and all that? Were they talking to your teacher as well? In my day, no, that didn't happen. In today's they were more informed. But still now with, you know what we were talking about earlier with COVID, with change of jobs and moving and it's hard to put that attention that's needed into your children's, not only their education, but their daily lives. It's hard on a parent, especially if that parent has ADHD. So think of all the layers we're talking about, especially if you have a parent with ADHD. It's hard. Moms with ADHD, have my heart.
Katy Weber 34:15
I know I've often said I want to go back to the version of me, I want to go back to me when I had babies and just give that version of me a hug, knowing what I know now because I feel like so many women really struggle in that period of time. And I had no idea why. Right? And so I often thought, What's wrong with me?
Terry Matlen 34:34
I did too. So that part is very important for moms listening to this is that give yourself a hug. You don't you didn't know or even if you did know, just if you take one little piece and that would be sleep deprivation. In those early months when I had kids, I was out of my mind. Because a lot of women with ADHD need that rest because we work so hard all day. All into the night to keep it together, not only keeping our house together, but given what our family needs, the children are our partner, we think of ourselves last. And that's a big problem. And so these moms with ADHD really, really struggle with terrible self esteem, we lose it easily, because we might be a little bit more emotional, and we don't have the brakes on our emotions and our behaviors at times. But we slap each other. I'm not saying that we slap ourselves for what you're describing, and I can just see it on your face that you had a rough go, I did too. And I hope the miles listening, can you give yourself some slack, it is so hard when you have ADHD. And even if your children don't have ADHD, they're needy. They're loud. Oh my gosh, I had a terrible time with that. I'm an inattentive woman, woman with an attentive ADHD, my kids were the exact opposite. It was a terrible mismatch in terms of temperament. So I had to deal with a lot of shrieking and noise and music and dancing and jumping and tapping and rah rah rah, that just about did me in.
Katy Weber 36:10
Yeah, you know, I loved that part. And the queen of distraction. I really appreciate it when you talked about the importance of taking time for yourself, because I remember, especially when my kids were little, they're teenagers now. And so they, I often don't see them sometimes all day. But I remember like, when Mother's Day would come around, and every year, all they wanted for Mother's Day was for everybody to leave the load, right. And I just always used to be like, what a terrible mother that that's all I want for Mother's Day is to is for everybody to get the hell out of the house. And I used to feel bad about it. So I really appreciated the fact that you addressed how important it is for that quiet and that time to recharge and reframing it in terms of like how that makes us a better parent. And you know, it felt very validating to have that permission.
Terry Matlen 37:00
I think that we need to learn to express what our needs are, you know, we were raised, you mentioned it in the beginning of this podcast that we take on society's expectations. When we're talking about women and girls, from the time were young girls were taught even in very, not verbal ways. We take care of others, we you know, we do, it's in the book, we do a million things to keep everyone together, we make the doctor's appointments, check with the teachers, make sure their clothes are clean. It's gotten better, where men do more things than they did you know, years ago, but we're not there yet. So we do so much for the family and for other people in general that we let our own needs go unspoken. And then what happens is just what you described, you know, I just need I need. I'm the same way, especially if you're an inattentive mom, and you've got young children who tend to be boisterous and loud and a lot of commotion. It just took everything out of me. And I have the same exact feelings that you're describing what kind of mother I remember one of my daughters on Mother's Day, wanting to give me breakfast in bed. Now I'm not a morning person is many women with ADHD are like that, with eight hours, I come alive at 9pm. So at 730 in the morning, my daughter comes in with a tray of something that she made was adorable. But you know, that's not what I needed. It's not what I need. It's what she needed. It's what she needed to do. So though I was very gracious. And I have no appetite when I wake up, you know, I put the tray aside and I thanked her and all that. But yeah, we need to explain our needs instead of always being in the background and giving, giving giving they come first they come first Well, yeah, as parents, we do need to take care of our children. But we have needs as well.
Katy Weber 38:51
Well said, I want to get back a bit to the topic of grief. Because I know this has been really this is a really difficult time right now. And we've had, like you said, it feels like since 2020. We've just been bombarded in a way in an unprecedented way by it just feels like every, every time you turn around, there's some other catastrophic news event that is really difficult for us to process and I have a lot of thoughts about hypersensitivity and emotional sensitivity and current events and the news, right, you know, and I feel like I'm turning this into a free therapy session. So stay tuned. You're like I don't want to do that. But one of my coping strategies has been to just get off of social media. I feel like social media is a really dangerous place for shouting into the void. It's not nuanced. I prefer having one on one. intentional conversations i i find it affects my mental health tremendously to be in the conversation right taking like being in the arena, so to speak. I have these really, really complicated issues. And so I have often just retreated. And I saw a Tiktok recently that I can't stop thinking about which was, when you retreat from social media, when you retreat from the conversation that is akin that's basically white supremacy, you know, you have the privilege to retreat. And so I'm really holding both of these realities. Because I do see that I do see that there is a privilege there in terms of retreating from social media, but I also feel like, I can't like I cannot engage. And I feel like there are a lot of narrative virgins out there who really struggle with the weightiness of grief in these topics, and how best to process this grief, how best to engage in meaningful ways. I'm curious how you've been dealing with this, and how ADHD comes into play with all this? Well, in
Terry Matlen 40:55
terms of the ADHD, so I hear what you're saying, and I am completely blown into the current Middle East conflicts. And you know, with an ADHD brain, we are sensory seeking, our brain is not always our body, because we also can be overwhelmed quite easily, but our brains are looking for stimuli. And it becomes a conflict right there. You know, my brain is saying, I need to know, I need to know, I need to know, my bodies. And this is exhausting me, I'm getting upset. I'm getting over reactive. And you know, all these things are bothered. So it's a push pull for me. The minute the thing that you said about white supremacy is very interesting. I hadn't thought of it like that, that we have options. We have options in a lot of way mentally, we can decide just turn off social media just walk away like say, I know, it's nowhere near me, what do I care? A lot of people who just don't care because it's not in our backyard. But my brain is saying what's going on? And and part of that, for me, I don't know about you? Is anxiety, this hypersensitivity that people with ADHD have what's going to happen now what's I need to know? How will I know? Well, I gotta turn on the news, or I got to turn on social media. So you're doing the right thing? Listen, we need to listen to ourselves, our brains and our bodies. So if our brains are seeking out stimuli, because we can't be bored, maybe think about what can i Where can I put this energy? Where can I put this energy where I'm still involved maybe in understanding what's going on in the world, whether it's climate issues, which is a big thing to or earthquakes, you know, far, far away from where we are, there's a lot lot going on? Where can I put that energy where it's not going to make me upset, depressed, anxious, over stimulated? Where can I shift that out? If turning off social media, not going on social media is what works for you do that, and maybe take little tiny sound bites, if you really want to stay on top of things, you know, instead of watching things on TV, read the newspaper, if you don't want to get tangled up in these arguments that you see on social media, which are very disturbing to me. That what you're doing get off of it. But I do think that a lot of it, again, has to do with our sensitivity issues that we take it in so deeply, that it affects us. And we I think just recognizing that might be the first step in knowing what to do about it. I'm hypersensitive, this really eye it gives me a reaction that's not healthy for me. But I still want to stay involved. You could ask somebody who is really involved, just give me a, you know, a two liner. Where are we with this thing that happened and this thing had happened? And then you have enough, just get enough of what you need? And then take the focus into something that's healthier for you. Without the guilt? Yeah, well, gosh,
Katy Weber 43:43
the without the guilt part. I was like, I don't know if that's gonna happen. But I liked the way you phrase where you said, Where can I put my energy, right? So it's acknowledging that the energy is still there, and it needs a place to go right energy needs a place to go. But where's the most helpful place for me to put my energy right now isn't retreating. It's being prudent. It's being it's being thoughtful and not shouting into the void? Well, there's other
Terry Matlen 44:10
things. So if you have an idea of where you stand on a fifth, let's talk about climate control. Right now. You have very strong feelings about making this a better world for us and our children, grandchildren, and on and on generation. Well, you could do volunteer work, you can donate money to the cause whatever it is, without jumping into, you know, I'm putting on my gloves, and I'm going to, you know, clean up the streets every Friday at three, whatever, what works for you what works for your brain, and again, it comes into self understanding, and that can come from therapy again, or being with people who understand you. And you have similar ideas about things. How are they How are you ask your friends, how are you managing during these crises? What do you do? But yeah, I think we need to shift The focus if it's too painful, too damaging to ourselves. And if that happens, then you know, creates a ripple that affects our families. And finding another positive way to deal with that, to work with it, that may as you said, you know, may do something to help the issue without jumping in and being disturbed by it.
Katy Weber 45:25
You know, it's funny, I talking about hypersensitivity in general, just sensitivity is a fascinating topic to me, too. So I want to pick your brain about this, because I know you talk a lot about sensitivity in your book. And I had posted a couple of years ago, I posted some videos that were like surprising things about ADHD that I didn't know about. And I talked a lot about sensitivity to fabrics, sensitivity to overhead lighting. I talked about, you know, preference for one mug above all others, you know, or how important the size of my spoon is. And oftentimes, I would get that comment back, which is, well, no, no, you're talking about autism. That's not ADHD. And so I found that interesting, because I was like, well, there's, you know, there's often there's a lot of overlap in terms of ADHD and autism when it comes to sensory stuff. But now I'm like, Well, are we talking about autism when it comes to the sensory stuff? Because now there's, you know, this dual diagnosis of Adi HD, and I'm like, now, I don't know where one ends and the other begins? How do I, how do I define what is ADHD? And what is autism? And what is both? Why is it so important for me to find? This is another question that I don't know. But I'm curious, you know, how are you able to kind of distinguish between the two? And when it comes to sensory insensitivity?
Terry Matlen 46:44
Well, first of all, I'm not an expert on autism. So I have to be careful because a lot of people watching this are experts, or they have both I don't I have just the ADHD. But there is an overlap with hypersensitivities. I do know that. And it can be confusing. But I think that if you're really evaluating this, or you're just questioning, do I have both? There are differences. I don't want to get into them only because I don't know enough about autism. And I don't know enough about differential diagnosis. But I kind of have a sense when people talk to me about certain problems that they're having. And they're wondering, could it be more than ADHD, and I kind of listen, and then suggest that they get evaluated by someone who does know the subtle differences. But with people with ADHD, I can get into the hypersensitivities, which are very common, but most people are unaware of them. And that's why I wrote that chapter. And I do a lot of talking about hypersensitivities. Because it's so painful to live in this world. And some of the things you described are exactly how I feel like when there's when I'm home, and I don't have to be around people. I wear clothes, the size too big. I don't like feeling restricted, constricted, I hate it. Now, here's something interesting. I think for years, I've been trying to find an OT, an occupational therapist, who evaluates adults with sensory issues. Sensory Processing Disorder, is an actual thing. It's an actual diagnosis. And I think I have it but I couldn't have done all these years. Couldn't find someone until about six months ago. And she happens to be local to me, I'm in the Detroit area. If anyone's curious, you know, contact me, I'll give you her name. And I went through an evaluation. She said, Oh, my God. Yeah, everything bothers me. It's not just one thing. For some people. It's just a couple of things that bother them, like, bright bytes, or textures of food, textures of clothing, certain kinds of sounds. Well, I have almost across the board something in every category. I think there's five categories, some that we already know, like, visual, auditory, taste, and texture. I can't remember the exact words. I have an every single category. So she gave it was almost almost like the ADHD diagnosis. It wasn't oh, gee, I wish my mother knew when I was eight years old, why I wouldn't wear a certain kind of outfit. I wouldn't wear pants with a funny waistband that little girls wore back then or I wouldn't wear wool Mila. I didn't go there. I didn't go that's like, okay, it's confirmed what I thought was going on with me all these years, finally been confirmed. I think I also have auditory processing disorder. Because this is very common in ADHD. Any little sound in the room when we're talking one on one? I can't focus. My attention is completely gone. And it says if I have lost my hearing, because I have to keep saying Ha ha, what did you say? I'm sorry, would you say? So? I'm still looking for solutions for how to manage that. I hate talking on the phone and you ask a lot of people with ADHD Do you like talking on the phone? And I would say the majority hate hates talking on the phone. And I think part of it is, first of all, it's all auditory. And we need more loose people I work with him, I said, we need more of our senses to take in information. On the other hand, we take in too much information, we get overwhelmed. So do you see is like a no win. And that's why it's so important to learn more about ourselves. Now you're talking about your hypersensitivities. And I'm so glad to hear that. Because most people when I talk about a say, Huh, you mean, I'm just it's not that I'm just weird. And then you feel like there's a heaviness? Because you ask, or you're afraid to ask people, you know, can you please turn off the TV while I'm reading? So a lot of people can automatically filter out that kind of stuff. I cannot. And it's frustrating. And it makes me anxious. And it makes me angry and irritable. So Oh, I could go on and on on that topic.
Katy Weber 50:49
I know, right? I reminded of how many times I sat down to take an exam in university and I like a giant gymnasium. And I could hear the clock ticking on the wall. And I just knew I was like, Oh, well, I'm not going to do well, like it's it just completely took over. And it's fascinating, because I've talked to some guests to where it's we talk about this idea of like occupying a section of your brain with, say, white noise or music or something, it's like you need to introduce a stimulation for one part of your brain so that the other part of your brain can work better, right. So it's like, if I read, I need ocean sounds, because otherwise I'll just read the same page over and over and over again. And I'm like, There's something about that, right where it's like, it's like there's this distractible part of your brain that needs to be occupied so that the focus part of your brain can work properly.
Terry Matlen 51:44
Now, that's a first for me, that's interesting, because I have the opposite problem, any little kind of sound, even if it's white noise or ocean noise sounds that I really like. I can't, I can't take both in, I cannot take both in. So I have to have complete sound, which was hard in college. Because my brother, my younger brother was a musician who was you know, younger, but he was playing the drums, he had a band and they were in the basement, I had to go outside in the backyard to study and do my homework. I mean, even if he had played gentle little piano music, I wouldn't be able to focus. Of course, back then I didn't know about add No. So unlike human, but that's really, really interesting. It makes sense. Because I know some people, I don't know if they have ADHD or not, they have to have the TV on. While they're working to have to have that background noise. I can't do that. But they do.
Katy Weber 52:38
It's funny, because I definitely could not have a TV on because that would distract me. But I study in a coffee shop, you know, I go to Starbucks to study now. And so you know, it's like, and I did that first time around in university, I had to I always did all of my best studying in a coffee shop. And so I'm like, so I have to have some kind of background noise. So interesting.
Terry Matlen 52:57
I have not heard that. I have not heard that. But getting back to that sensory thing in autism, just because we might have a lot of sensory sensitivities, does not automatically mean you have autism. But if you have other issues, and I don't want to get into them, because I don't want to give the wrong information out. Go to, you know, a mental health professional and get evaluated. Just make sure and this is what I say to people who are going for an add evaluation, make sure they are experts in the field, not a generalist. Because Wow, so many people have gone to just a regular clinician, do I have ADHD? Well, you did so well in school, you got a college degree, how can you have ADHD? And then you know, boom, you're depressed. I'm laughing but it's not a laughable thing.
Katy Weber 53:48
That's another one I think we tend to do. It's like a coping mechanism. I feel like every time I talk about my trauma, I laugh along with it.
Terry Matlen 53:56
Well, that's a good interesting topic right there too. You know, it could be discomfort, it could be a way to push push it away, you know, some denial and embarrassment. A lot of reasons for that, but it's pretty common you know, you're not alone.
Katy Weber 54:11
So now you had released a blog post recently about your your pet peeves around ADHD, which I found very entertaining and shared all of them. One of the ones that I more agnostic about it was the was the person first versus identity first language around ADHD. Now you had mentioned it's your pet peeve when people use identity first when people refer to themselves as an ADHD or, and so I'm curious. What bothers you about about the identity first?
Terry Matlen 54:42
Katy Weber 54:46
It was controversial, right? I was gonna say you got a lot of you got a lot of feedback on that one.
Terry Matlen 54:51
I got a lot of feedback and I understand where they're coming from. I think part of it is generational, that the younger generation identify says an ADHD or or a queer, whatever it is whatever arena that they're in. For me, it's it to me it sounds like you belong to an exclusive club. I'm an ADHD ear. So people with depression, don't walk around saying I'm a depression or put this in the in the article. People with anxiety don't say, Well, I'm an anxiety. I think I haven't said with OCD. I don't know that I've heard people say, Well, I'm an OCD or or someone with Tourette Syndrome, do they say I'm a ticker? So it just doesn't feel right to me. I'm a person who happens to have an ADHD brain I don't identify as an add or an ADHD or that is secondary, or, you know, even third, whatever. I am a woman, I'm a mother, I'm a daughter, and all those things are not an ADHD or why that bothers me. I'm not sure except from what I'm just explaining. That's, that's not. That's not when I walk into a party or a group of people. I don't say, Hi, my name is Terry. I'm an ADHD ear. That just doesn't sit right with me. I'm Terry, you know, I'm this, I do that. And then if comes up about well, you know, I have depression. I have anxiety. I have ADHD. I don't think that quite answered your question. There's something bothering you.
Katy Weber 56:21
Well, no. I mean, it's I am curious. I think I can see both sides. Absolutely. And I think that, you know, it's curious to me, because I think there is a way in which so much of this diagnosis in adulthood is about reframing right, and I am the last person who will call ADHD a superpower. But I think there are ways in which that a lot of the our treatment plan, so to speak is, is self acceptance and reframing what ADHD looks like, and that this is that there is a lot of positives to this. So I understand why people want to embrace the identity of ADHD and not look at it as a disorder or a disability. But at the same time, there is a lot of struggle, it's not an inherently positive element to my personality. And so do I want to be thought of only as a person with ADHD? No, of course not. There's so many more aspects to my life. I just don't. It's just doesn't bother me. For somebody to, to use it because it's easier, right? Yeah. But I'd love to think about it.
Terry Matlen 57:26
That's a good thing. It could be a generational thing. I don't know. I don't know, maybe this is how people talk more about having ADHD than they did you know, 2530 years ago when i Whatever? I don't know, I don't know why it bothers me. Except that it feels like we're an exclusive club. And it's almost like, well, you know, this is a problem. And I'm going to own up to it. But take it maybe a little too much. I don't know if I'm can even explain it right? Because there were a few people that that didn't agree and social media and they explained it way better than I could.
Katy Weber 58:06
Yeah, no, I mean, I think there is a you know, I think there are a lot of ways in which person first is an important way, you know, like you said, or even like, you know, you wouldn't call a person with cancer a cancerous person. So there are ways in which it's not our entire identity. But at the same time, I'm like, well, is separating yourself from the ADHD, which essentially you're doing with person first language is that somehow indicating that there's a way that you might be able to cure it, or that there's a version of you without it and something about identity first, especially in the Autistic community is that there's no way of separating myself from the ADHD. So there's no version of me that exists without it. And so therefore, it's identity first, but I don't know, like I said, I see both sides. And I always love thinking about it.
Terry Matlen 58:57
But something for me to think more about, I know that the Asperger's community, we don't even use the term Asperger's anymore. Unfortunately, I have a real issue with that you want to talk about that. So unfortunate that there's one term for all of autism, I don't go for that. But you know, a lot of people that identify as I'm an SP, now, I don't have Asperger's. I don't have autism, but it's the same kind of thing. And I need to you know, you've given me some food for thought and if people respond to what we're talking about, um, you know, I like to learn from other people. I don't want to offend people, but it'll help me be a better person to understand. Well, you know, what is it about cinnamon Ed, dear, that makes you feel better about it? I'd like to know.
Katy Weber 59:46
Yeah. Interesting. Which leads me to my favorite question I love to ask at the end of my interviews is if you could come up with a name, do you have an issue with ADHD? And if you could rename it to something else? What would you call it?
Terry Matlen 1:00:00
I do have an issue because it's not a deficit of attention at all. It's where we put our attention is having control, I haven't thought of of a term that really is right for me. But it has to do with being able to have power over control. But I did have to look at my notes because I came up with a couple, because I would never be able to memorize it. But I had some, you know, light hearted terms like more than able less label, that's not really a, you know, a clinical term, but I'm just being light hearted, where am I keys condition, can't turn off your brain trait, but then I came up with something that did seem possible, and that was executive function, variable intention condition. That's a mouthful, that's not going to work. But I think the basis of our problems is executive function. And I'm sure that from all of your podcasts, it's been explained what executive function is, I don't want to take up space with that. But it's variable. And we don't always have control. And I think that's a big thing. And then all the stuff about self regulation is a big part of it too. self regulation and variability of being able to control our attention, but then there's so much more to it as we've been talking about. There's a sensory stuff, there's self esteem stuff, what's the rub? What's wrong with me stuff? There's so much to this, I don't know how you would just get four words. But no, I don't like ADHD as a diagnostic label. I hate it. Attention deficit. You know, we can be I can be on on the computer for five hours straight. Where's my attention is just in the wrong place.
Katy Weber 1:01:41
Yeah, absolutely. And and see what hyperactivity was one of those things that I recognize it in many ways now in terms of my internalized hyper activity and my internalized thinking, but it was not certainly not anything that I related to. And in fact, I would say it put me off looking into ADHD because I've never thought of myself as a hyperactive person. And one of the things I like Dodson refers to he's he prefers hyper arousal instead of hyperactivity. And that's one of the ones I really like, because I definitely could relate to hyper arousal. I
Terry Matlen 1:02:13
agree with that one.
Katy Weber 1:02:14
But yeah, I mean, I had never heard of the term executive functioning until I was diagnosed and started looking into it. And that's where I'm like, Why don't they teach that in school? Why are they teaching Hoback? Ah, yeah, get
Terry Matlen 1:02:28
rid of that, oh, God, I flunked sewing class, big time. But we weren't talking about executive functioning in the beginning. There wasn't much talk about it. So it's, it's not that it's new, that we're focusing on it, but it's newer. So, you know, there was a lot of talk about hyperactivity and inattention and, and that sort of thing, I'm so glad to see that it's now being taught to ES executive functioning. and that's really, you know, it's all about getting from A to B and from B to C. And in that A to B, B to C, or all these different parts of planning the, you know, all those things fall under. I mean, ADHD falls under that in a big, big way. And and I'm just, I'm glad that we're talking about it in that way now. But I like what that says, I didn't read that one. I didn't see that. But I like that.
Katy Weber 1:03:15
Right. Yeah. That's that's how I kind of like to think about it now. Although I really liked the what's wrong? What's wrong with me syndrome? Nothing's wrong with you. Right? That's my series holder would say nothing's wrong with you.
Terry Matlen 1:03:26
Oh, yeah. She says, whatever. What the only thing that needs fixing is furniture in your pet dogs, dogs in your furniture. I thought, Oh, my God, that's brilliant. We're not broken. You know,
Katy Weber 1:03:39
one of the things that I left about, I use that quote for her episode, and I had all I didn't realize that fixing your animal is a uniquely North American phrase. So all of these you can women in the UK and Australia were coming at me about dogs and they were like, my dog is wonderful. The bike dog does not need to be changed. I was like, no, it's actually just reads your you know, your snipping them. But yeah,
Terry Matlen 1:04:03
hilarious. So what term do they use? Oh, that's
Katy Weber 1:04:07
a good question. I don't know. I don't know what they use for for neutering. But yep. Anyway, well, Terry, thank you so much. This has been so wonderful a really, really a treat to get to pick your brain. And thank you so much for all that you put into this world and your incredible books and the incredible education for all of us.
Terry Matlen 1:04:28
Thank you, Katie had great questions. And it was a lot of fun. So thanks. And hopefully I can come back again sometime.
Katy Weber 1:04:34
Oh, I'd love that. Awesome.
There you have it. Thank you for listening, and I really hope you enjoyed this episode of the women and ADHD podcast. If you'd like to find out more about me and my coaching programs, head over to women and adhd.com If you're a woman who was diagnosed with ADHD and you'd like to apply to be a guest on this podcast, visit women and adhd.com slash podcast guest and you can find that link in the episode show notes. Also, you know we ADHD ears crave feedback. And I would really appreciate hearing from you the listener, please take a moment to leave me a review on Apple podcasts or audible. And if that feels like too much and I totally get it, please just take a few seconds right now to give me a five star rating or share this episode on your own social media to help reach more women who maybe have yet to discover and lean into this gift of nerd of urgency. And they may be struggling and they don't even know why. I'll see you next week when I interview another amazing woman who discovered she's not lazy or crazy or broken. But she has ADHD and she's now on the path to understanding her neuro divergent mind and finally using this gift to her advantage. Take her till that.