Vicky Quinn Fraser: Mental maelstroms & dopamine sandwiches

Jun 19, 2023


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 Episode 142 with Vicky Quinn Fraser.

“There are bees in my brain. It's a constant buzzing and they're all flying in different directions.”

Vicky is a writer and entrepreneur who teaches misfit small-business owners how to write and self-publish amazing books. She is the creator of the Moxie Method: a framework for writing books with the power to change hearts, minds, and lives.

She’s the author of How The Hell Do You Write A Book, and for the last 10 years she has used the Moxie Method to take aspiring authors from blank page to book. 

We talk about some of the difficulties we face when it comes to getting started with large projects like book writing, and Vicky talks about some of her writing strategies and tools and tips for writers or aspiring writers with ADHD.

We also talk about the trap of “must-erbating” and discuss the nuances of motivation, inspiration, momentum, and how to use tiny beetle steps to get started.


Instagram: @tinybeetlesteps

Books & Articles mentioned:

ADHD: Private clinics exposed by BBC undercover investigation

Worth It: A Journey to Food & Body Freedom by Katy Weber

Stop Falling Short by Johanna McWeeney

The Science of Stuck by Britt Frank

Bird by Bird by Anne Lamott





Katy Weber She Her (00:03.051)

You made me crack up with your face right there. Welcome Vicki. I'm so glad to have you on the podcast. Thank you for being here.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (00:10.808)
Oh, thank you so much for having me. I love your podcast. It has been such an amazing source of good stuff for me since I got my diagnosis. So thank you.

Katy Weber She Her (00:21.937)
Ah, I love that. So how long ago were you diagnosed?

Vicky Quinn Fraser (00:25.914)
Um, what is time? Um, it was about, I think it was about a year ago that I got my, um, official diagnosis from the psychiatrist. Um, so yeah, about a year ago.

Katy Weber She Her (00:28.034)
I'm sorry.

Katy Weber She Her (00:36.574)
Wow, okay. So that's pretty impressive in the UK, right? I mean, the way I feel like the waiting list now is years long, even if you go in the private sector, it's

Vicky Quinn Fraser (00:46.066)
It really is and it's about to become a whole, I was gonna say shitshow am I allowed to swear, of nonsense after that. Because I don't know if you've seen but we had an investigative journalism thing which I have not watched yet but the fallout of which I know is just going to be some endless BS. But yeah it's been, it's difficult, people wait years and I just got really lucky because in the area where I am.

Katy Weber She Her (00:52.422)
Yes, of course.

Katy Weber She Her (01:00.122)
Ugh, yes.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (01:16.002)
I got a referral from my GP through our Right to Choose system, which means that if there's a big waiting list on the NHS, you can get referred privately. So I got really lucky with that. I got in before the rush, I guess.

Katy Weber She Her (01:27.346)
Yeah, right. It feels like every country has their own shit show when it comes to not only diagnosis, but then access to medication and where the costs lie. Like it's fascinating to me, having grown up in Canada and now being in the US where the medical system is a disaster, you know, the healthcare system is such a disaster. But there are ways, you know, in which the privatization of a lot of this stuff has been beneficial, you know, especially not

Katy Weber She Her (01:56.978)
it there's nothing really beneficial about two tiered healthcare. But when you're talking about like speed and, and impatience and all the stuff that comes around wanting to get your diagnosis as fast as possible, the U S is like, sure, we'll diagnose. But you know, it's funny, like my husband, but with my kids, this is a totally, this is, I think this is the earliest I've ever had this kind of tangent, but just, um, my husband.

Katy Weber She Her (02:21.882)
When we had my kids diagnosed, they were both diagnosed with an online company. And, uh, it was like a full psych evaluation that was done remotely. And he was basically like, well, you're paying them. They'll tell you whatever you want to hear. And like, he just planted that seed of doubt, right? Which has always been there. Um, which I don't believe, but it's like, you know, it's, it's, I think it's definitely a question that should be out there. I think it's naive for us to avoid that, but at the same time, yeah. It's so.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (02:42.817)

Vicky Quinn Fraser (02:48.125)

Katy Weber She Her (02:51.71)
It's so frustrating. Anyway, let's not talk about that. I haven't wanted to touch that expose with a 10 foot pole because it is so frustrating. Okay. So, so you were diagnosed about a year ago and you were 43, right? Is that what you said?

Vicky Quinn Fraser (02:51.946)

Vicky Quinn Fraser (02:55.722)
Thank you.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (03:00.606)
Yeah, same. Yeah.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (03:09.086)
Yes, I am now 44. I was trying to work out earlier how old I was because I knew you were going to ask me that question. I was like, yes, I was 43.

Katy Weber She Her (03:17.59)
It is so weird. Like, was this... Is that a pandemic thing that we have no sense of time? Because I feel like also that's a neurodivergent thing, which is just maybe with working memory, where we're always like, how old am I? I always have to work backwards. Even today, I was like, what grade are my kids at? Like, it's so many of those numbers.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (03:36.342)
No, I don't know. I think like, I think the pandemic definitely made it worse. But I have always struggled with that. Like people ask me how old I am and I will either not know or I will say something that's totally wrong and then be like, that's not true. Um, and it's yeah, but the pandemic definitely made it worse because it compressed like three years into one. So.

Katy Weber She Her (03:52.574)
Right? Yeah, I know. Um, okay. So, and you know, you had mentioned when you first reached out that you were, when you were diagnosed, it was a surprise to nobody. So what was happening? What, what kind of, what were some of the signs or what were some of the things that you related to the traits that you related to where you were like, Oh, it's not just me, it's ADHD.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (04:14.51)
So there were so many, but I think that the things that really struck home are the things that probably made me feel the most shame about the stuff that I was dealing with. So I got fired twice and I joke about that a lot and the joking is to cover up the extreme shame that I feel about it because it's just not cool to get fired, no matter how entrepreneurs be like, oh, I'm an employer, blah, blah, blah. That's not cool.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (04:42.03)
So there was that. I had a lot of jobs, ever-changing hobbies and interests, that kind of thing. Accidentally becoming a sheep keeper, which is one of my husband's favourite. Oh, this is Vicky's latest ridiculous thing. I came home, literally came home with a baby, a wonky sheep, and was like, we have a sheep! And he's just like, right, okay, and now we have three sheep and it's a whole thing. So stuff like that.

Katy Weber She Her (05:09.192)
Where do you come upon a wonky sheep? Was he just on the side of the road?

Vicky Quinn Fraser (05:13.962)
No, I went to stay with a friend of mine and she rented a cottage on a farm and so we were just wandering around and the farmer had just been lambing and we were, oh how's it going? And he's like oh it's great we haven't lost any this year but we might have to, I might have to knock this little one on the head and he picked up this like adorable lamb. He's got a wonky leg and if I can't straighten it out he's going to be no use and it's going to be painful and all the rest of it and I was just like give him to me I will take him home and so I did.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (05:42.474)
Yeah, just chucked him in the back of the car, talking to him and my husband's just like, oh my good God, what's happening? What is happening? And you can't have just one sheep because they're a flock animal. So now we have three sheep. So that is, yeah, that's one thing, but just like my inability to be on time, no matter how hard I try, is that that is just I try so hard. I'm better at it now because I've got a lot of...

Katy Weber She Her (05:56.898)

Vicky Quinn Fraser (06:08.982)
know, I've spent 43 years putting things in place to kind of, you know, make it make it easier for myself but it was just that, I don't know, just people would say, oh you know, if you're late it shows disrespect for the person that you're meeting and it's like it that's not it, it's not it. I kind of had this, like if something starts, so for example this podcast interview I put early in my calendar because it is the only way I was going to be able to get here. I've got an appointment

Vicky Quinn Fraser (06:37.362)
later, which is also early in my calendar because I know that what I do is I see the time and I'm like oh okay that's what time I have to start getting ready and it's like I cannot make my brain go that's what time I have to be there it's like that's what time I have to start getting ready so that kind of thing. Total timeline-less! So I had a conversation with my husband and I thought everybody suffered from this but apparently not and he would be like okay let's do a little experiment to see if you can work out how long something takes. What time... I can't

Vicky Quinn Fraser (07:07.222)
It's like, what time is it now? And like half an hour ago, I'd kind of had a look and it was like 9 p.m. And I was like, I don't know, like five past nine? And it was, I was like 25 minutes out. And so things like that, like little things like that, boredom, lack of object permanence, making me a terrible friend and daughter and sister, and you know, all of that kind of stuff. So all loads of things that once I got diagnosed was just like, oh, okay, that makes sense. Maybe I can stop hating myself quite so much and start figuring out what to do about this.

Katy Weber She Her (07:21.084)

Katy Weber She Her (07:36.246)
Hmm. Yeah, I know. I feel like we've talked about that too. Which is like none of that is on the DSM, right? None of that is none of the shame, none of the emotional stuff. So where was it like TikTok videos or where were you? Where were you getting this information that you were kind of like, oh, that's really relatable.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (07:55.158)
So I was getting it from friends that also have ADHD. Yeah, TikTok videos, Instagram, that kind of thing. As soon as I get interested in something, I get really interested. So I just started reading everything. And I was just like, oh, this is really interesting. That I relate to totally, that I relate to totally. Loads of stuff about the differences between boys and girls, because it never even occurred to me when somebody asked me, you know, have you ever been diagnosed with ADHD? And I was like,

Vicky Quinn Fraser (08:24.462)
How very dare you, I absolutely have not. And I was totally affronted because I knew nothing about it. And I was just like, isn't that for naughty boys? Because when I was at school, when you were at school as well, I guess, it just wasn't a thing that girls had definitely. It wasn't really a thing that kids had. And so it was just like, no, that's not me. I'm not, I was never the naughty one causing disruption in classes or anything like that. And so I can't, it can't possibly be me. But as soon as I started looking into it a bit more, I was just like, oh, that's really interesting because all of my...

Katy Weber She Her (08:29.504)

Vicky Quinn Fraser (08:54.046)
inattentiveness and kind of hyperactivity just manifested differently. So like I'm really super fidgety. I can't rest. It's like the whole driven by a motor thing. I was like, yeah, yes. And it drives my husband up the wall. It's like, can I would really like to see you relax every now and then. And I'm like, don't know how. I don't know how to do that. And my version of relaxing apparently is not the same as kind of other people's. And just that this idea that I think I saw, I think that the most relatable thing that I saw

Vicky Quinn Fraser (09:23.754)
was a meme that was like, I did not realise until today that when other people say that they're feeling lazy, it means they don't wanna do it and they can't be bothered. But when I say I'm lazy, it means I've been trying really hard to do the thing that I want to do. Like, I don't know, clean my room, but I just can't. And like, I hadn't made that, I haven't made that differentiation. So like, I would be like, oh, I'm really lazy because that would be what I would see other people, you know, oh.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (09:50.85)
they're just sitting on the sofa doing nothing, they can't be asked to do the thing that they wanted to do. But for me, it would be like, I'm in my head, I'm like screaming at myself to do the thing that I want to do. And it's just, it's like, there's a, I kind of likened it to, it's like an extremely heavy and angry bear sitting on my chest, not allowing me to get up and do the thing that I want to do. And so that for me was a real like, oh, that's really, that was exciting to read because I was like, maybe I'm not.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (10:18.602)
like a lazy trash panda after all maybe there's something else going on there.

Katy Weber She Her (10:22.442)
I think I've actually used that phrase called lazy trash panda. You know, it's funny, what I feel like this is what always used to confuse me about a diagnosis of depression too, right? Which was never feeling like it fit. And so many of us are diagnosed with depression and I think we genuinely have it. I mean, I think most of us have the shame and the what's wrong with me and I'm a terrible human and all of this stuff that feels like depression.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (10:39.626)

Katy Weber She Her (10:49.718)
But for me, it was never the lack of desire. Like you said, it was the desire to do all the things, the extreme like excitability and desire and ideas and wanting to do all these things, but just feeling incapable. Like, yeah, right? Just feeling like there is a giant bear on my chest or just feeling like I don't know where to start. I can't do it. Like getting in my own way, the paralysis was much more relatable than just that the lack of

Vicky Quinn Fraser (10:58.699)

Katy Weber She Her (11:18.706)
lack of desire. And so that never felt like depression to me. And I, you know, and was always sort of very confused by like, what is that? Like always, like, is this a learning disability or what, you know, why is there that I didn't really understand or even know what executive dysfunction was? It wasn't a term I had ever heard. Um, or if I did, I hadn't taken note of it until, until my diagnosis. Yeah.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (11:42.13)
Yeah, same. It's such a weird thing to describe to people as well. If people haven't experienced it, they don't get it. They just don't get it. And it's really difficult to try and kind of explain it to people because they're just like, well, what do you mean? Just stand up and do the thing. And it's like, yeah, how do you do that? How does that work? And, you know, there are ways that you can make it work. And there are techniques and there's, I know...

Katy Weber She Her (12:00.158)

Vicky Quinn Fraser (12:07.35)
Some people find medication super helpful. And so there's all sorts of ways to do it, but it's like that initial, if you don't know what's going on, it just feels so weird. It's like, well, what is, was literally what's wrong with me? There's obviously something wrong with me because everybody else is finding this thing really easy and I cannot get my ass off the chair. So what is happening?

Katy Weber She Her (12:27.154)
Right, right. And not only that, but then I think paralysis is so different from relaxation. And so for many of us, I think we experience paralysis. We experience the idea of like sitting on the couch, scrolling our phone, not being able to do anything. And so for all intents and purposes, it looks like we're relaxing. And yet it's like, why am I so unhappy and exhausted all the time?

Katy Weber She Her (12:51.654)
Uh, I should feel relaxed because I haven't done anything all day. And so it was like that feeling of like, like you said, like relaxation to us looks very different and I've kind of had to embrace that even just with going on vacations or like ways in which downtime and recharging and restoring ourselves doesn't look like lying on the couch. In fact, if I'm lying on the couch, there's prob I probably need to help to, you know, to get, get somewhere. Yeah.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (13:16.618)
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's so interesting because it's like in and I think part of the reason it's so exhausting when certainly for me anyway, when I'm kind of sitting there and like doom scrolling or playing Lemmings or whatever it is I'm doing on my phone. It's like I am like I'm physically like almost physically fighting myself and you know, there's a battle going on in my brain and that's really tiring. It's really exhausting. Plus there's the whole like voice going, you're a trash panda, you're useless, all of the kind of internal negative nonsense as well that goes with it and that's

Vicky Quinn Fraser (13:46.146)
That's exhausting. So it's like, no wonder, no wonder we're knackered all the time.

Katy Weber She Her (13:50.29)
Right? I know. I feel like there's so much to unpack when it comes to it.

Katy Weber She Her (13:55.718)
that feeling of exhaustion. And again, I didn't realize everybody didn't feel that way, right? Like it's really hard to, to like judge your own experience versus what is a quote unquote normal experience. And I always felt like that with exhaustion too, which was like, maybe I, maybe I don't sleep well. I don't know. Like, you know, all of those questions where it's like, maybe I need a better night's sleep or maybe I need this or maybe I be, um, but like, then you.

Katy Weber She Her (14:21.102)
I remember like the first time it occurred to me how exhausting it must be to mask. Right? And that was something that was like, Oh yeah, like we, we really, or even like you were talking about like how much, how much energy we put into showing up on time or how much energy we put into remembering things and how like it is just so much of that underwater paddling that, that nobody sees that we're like, Oh, okay. Yeah. It makes sense why I'm tired all the time.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (14:50.422)
Yeah, and you're right, the masking thing is... The masking thing is, I don't know, it's a thing. And it's like, I know that, because everybody has personas that they wear for different situations and all the rest of it. So that's fine, but it's like, it's the, like you say, it's the amount of energy that you put into appearing normal, you know, whatever normal is with my air quotes. But yeah, it's just like, and I didn't realise, I did not realise, I like, still now think, where was I when the how to interact socially?

Vicky Quinn Fraser (15:19.414)
with people Handbook was given out as a child because like I would watch children and I watch children now, like just interacting and like being really kind of eloquent and graceful and you know, they're doing their backwards and forwards and I'm like, how do they do that? Because I just, I used to stand on the sidelines and I used to study people. It would be like, I am gonna watch, I'm gonna watch these people to find out what conversations they're having and how they're working. And I would still say the most inappropriate stuff. And I have a funny story for you if you would like to hear it in a minute. But it would be like,

Vicky Quinn Fraser (15:49.646)
Okay, so how is this interaction gonna go? How am I gonna have this conversation? What am I saying? What is my face doing for a start? Because every now and then my husband will nudge me and he'll be like sort your face out Because he's told me that if I think somebody is an idiot they can instantly tell And so it's just like I he finds it really funny Yeah, he finds it really funny, but I'm like this is gonna get me punched at some point So but yeah, it's just like the amount of energy that goes into I don't know if this is the same for all ADHD people Or if it's just me but like just

Katy Weber She Her (16:05.378)
I love that. Sort your face out.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (16:19.566)
trying to figure out how to be in a group of people, like when to talk, when to not talk, when to say, when to give an opinion, how to not overshare, like I missed that lesson. And so yeah, it's just, it's very tiring.

Katy Weber She Her (16:34.634)
Well, and not only that, but the hangover that comes after conversations, right? Where the overthink of like, oh, I can't believe I said that. What did that mean? What was their reaction? What are they gonna think? Like, I feel like, especially with oversharing, right? Where I come away from conversations and for three days, I'll have a hangover of just replaying it and all the things I did that I was like, what were you thinking?

Katy Weber She Her (16:58.222)
Why did that come out? You know, it just... So wait, I want to hear your funny story.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (17:03.943)
It is. Oh my god, okay, so this is a few years ago now, and we were on holiday with a group of friends on a climbing holiday on Greek Island. I used to do rock climbing. And we had been talking about how when you're a kid, adults would say that thing where they're like, oh, you eat so much, you must have hollow legs. You know, where do you put it all? You must have hollow legs.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (17:26.398)
And about 10 minutes later, because I was still, my brain was still mulling over the possibilities of having hollow limbs and for food storage kind of solutions. And one of our friends had said, it said, oh, this is so delicious, but I'm so full. I can't eat anymore. And so I just said, why don't you open up your legs and just stuff it all in. And the whole like, the whole tape, there was like silence for about 30 seconds as everybody just looked at me and I was like, what? And then somebody repeated it back to me

Vicky Quinn Fraser (17:57.042)
Oh, that's not at all what I meant. And kind of everybody else had obviously moved on with the conversation and I was still thinking about hollow legs and then what came out of my face did not resemble what I meant to say. That still wakes me up at 3 a.m. And that was like 10 years ago. That's kind of funny now, but it's just that is the kind of...

Katy Weber She Her (18:16.266)
goodness. Oh, that was funny.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (18:22.818)
sums up the kind of struggle I have, it's like I will fixate on something from a conversation and that will go off in my head and the conversation will move on and I will carry on with what I'm thinking about and everybody's like, what?

Katy Weber She Her (18:33.59)
Well, not only that, which makes me laugh at how many times there's like, well, the con, there's no context to what you say, but it makes absolute sense to you because you're making these rapid fire connections during conversation, which I think is highly neurodivergent, but also just like

Katy Weber She Her (18:49.446)
I feel like the one thing we all have in common is we all tend to say things like, does that make any sense? Right? What I, because I'm not sure it makes sense to me. So does it like make sense to you? But the fact that we're constantly like, what comes out of our face, as you just said, which is hilarious. But you know, it's like, does that, is that at all logical? Like having no idea, um, if this, our stream of consciousness is making sense to anybody.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (19:16.626)
Yeah, the phrase, does that make sense, comes out of my face a lot and yeah, everybody I know is really used to me saying that and they're like, 50% of the time, yeah, it makes perfect sense and 50% of the time, not so much.

Katy Weber She Her (19:28.678)
Oh, right, I know. You know, I was just reminded of when my daughter was in maybe second or third grade, she wanted to call somebody on the phone and she had never used the phone. I mean, she really hadn't talked on the phone much and I didn't realize that.

Katy Weber She Her (19:42.542)
speaking on the phone was an acquired skill, or at least it was in my household. And so we had to sit down and go and we practiced phone conversations and we practice like, if this person says this, what do I say this? So we had all of these like scripts that she was memorizing. And at the time I didn't really like, neither of us was diagnosed with ADHD. We're both self-diagnosed with autism. So it was like, I didn't realize what a neurodivergent

Katy Weber She Her (20:07.91)
experience that whole thing was at the time. To me, I was like, Oh, I didn't realize that people have to do this, but okay, here we go. And like sitting down and being so panicked and also like methodical about social interactions that now I look back and I'm like, Oh yeah, the sides were there all along.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (20:29.409)
Yeah, so do you find phone calls difficult and stressful?

Katy Weber She Her (20:32.966)
Oh my God. Yeah. I mean, I, especially when, especially if somebody just calls me out of the blue, I won't answer the phone. And, and I find that strange because like we, you know, a generation ago, we all just had a one phone in our house that we, you know, it would ring and everybody would be excited. You'd be like, we'd have no idea who it was. And that was how people existed. And now I'm like, Oh no, like we need to arrange ahead of time. If we are going to talk on the phone, I need, I need warning. I need like mental preparation. Yeah.

Katy Weber She Her (21:02.85)
Ha ha!

Vicky Quinn Fraser (21:02.886)
Yeah, same, because like I obviously I remember this weird generation that we are that is like remembers life pre-internet and also kind of post-internet and it's just I miss people not knowing where I am every hour of every day but that's a different thing. But it's like yeah I just find like I will literally glare at my phone if it rings I will be like how dare you, how dare you and I get really stressed about it and then if I know somebody's gonna ring I will go into waiting mode for a start because that's the thing that I do and then I will sweat a lot.

Katy Weber She Her (21:14.274)
I'm sorry.

Katy Weber She Her (21:21.83)
It's such an affront!

Vicky Quinn Fraser (21:32.542)
And then I will babble and then when it comes to say goodbye, I will either just put the phone down because I don't know how to end it or I will still be there on the end of the phone being like, hey, bye bye bye, K K bye. It's like a whole thing. And I do the same thing on Zoom calls as well. So look forward to that at the end of this call.

Katy Weber She Her (21:48.418)
I was gonna say I should do a montage of the end of every interview I've had on this podcast because there is always that awkward like over goodbye, which is like, okay then, okay then, all right goodbye.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (21:58.07)
Please do! Please turn that into like a reel or something, I would love to watch that.

Katy Weber She Her (22:02.214)
Right? Seriously. That's funny, right? But it's so yeah, it is. It is. I don't even know what to say now. I'm like social interactions. But yeah, it is fascinating. Just thinking about like how this diagnosis is so

Katy Weber She Her (22:21.938)
eye opening, right? And it's so that in itself, I think is really difficult to articulate to people who, you know, especially if you're like, Oh, everybody, when I was diagnosed, people were like, Oh yeah, I get, that's not a big surprise, but like how to even explain to other people how life changing this is just like, Oh, like it is. Yeah. I don't know.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (22:39.959)

Vicky Quinn Fraser (22:42.686)
Yeah, because I've had people say, you know, well, why do you, why do you need a label? You know, why is, why is that useful? And I was like, well, A, it's not a label. Um, and you know, it's, it's, it is what it is. And B, it just allowed me, and I'm still working on this, but it's allowing me to let go of so much shame about who I am and what I've done. Cause you know, this, I mean, everybody's got stuff in their

Vicky Quinn Fraser (23:04.318)
I've done stuff that I'm really not proud of and I'm not excusing it at all because I don't think there is, you know, there's not an excuse for bad behavior, but now I understand it. I can start to let go of the shame that I've got around it and be like, okay, well I screwed up, everybody screws up. Um, and so now I know why I can never make that kind of mistake again. Like I'll make new ones, I'm sure, but I can, you know, I'm never going to go back and make that one again. And so for me, getting the diagnosis was just...

Vicky Quinn Fraser (23:29.546)
It was really, it was, it was a bit of a rollercoaster. It was really upsetting. I cried a lot. I still do sometimes when I, when I kind of think about it. Um, but it was also such a relief cause I was just like, like I said before, it's like, I'm not, I'm not a trashy person. Um, you know, I didn't do, I don't, I didn't do the things that I did on purpose. I don't annoy people on purpose. I don't, none of this stuff is on purpose and it's just allows you to let go of that kind of, that part of the identity and have this other identity instead, which I find, I find really, really

Vicky Quinn Fraser (23:58.85)
I know that not everybody does. I've got a couple of friends who are, who suspect they have ADHD and they're like, they're not interested in getting a diagnosis, but they're also a lot younger and they kind of had an upbringing where they were allowed to be who they were. And like times have changed since I was a kid, since I was young. And so they've had a lot more freedom to be able to, you know, they weren't forced to sit in a classroom all day doing job, doing school work, but they hated it. It's like they had, they had the freedom to go and do other, other stuff to kind of use their energy and use their creative energy in different ways. And so they,

Vicky Quinn Fraser (24:26.774)
they don't really find it useful to have that diagnosis, which I totally get, totally respect. But for me, it's been, it really has been a game changer because it's just, it's just been a relief and, you know, and trying to explain that to other people is sometimes really frustrating. So I've mostly given up trying. It's like, well, you know, you do you, I'll do me. That's fine. And like trying to talk to my parents as well, because they are, I don't know how much of this to say on a podcast, but it's like,

Vicky Quinn Fraser (24:53.802)
But they are for sure, like my Nana for example, she died a few years ago, but she was known for hating loud noises and now I look back on her and who she was and her personality. And quite a lot of members of my family are a bit weird and I mean that mostly in the nicest possible way. And it's just like, this stuff runs in families and so to be able to know why and why we struggle with certain things and who in your family might be neurodivergent, I think is just super useful because...

Vicky Quinn Fraser (25:20.662)
If I'd known, like my mum is like, well, isn't everybody like that? And I'm like, no, but that's what people with undiagnosed things say to their children. So, I don't know where that ramble started or where it was going, but anyway.

Katy Weber She Her (25:34.003)
I had a thought and I lost it too when you were talking. I should have written it down, but yeah, you know, no, lost it, oh shit, oh well.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (25:42.578)
Oh, the label thing. Yeah, they're getting diagnosed.

Katy Weber She Her (25:45.346)
Oh, that's what it was, right? Well, and I think for me, it's really important. Oh, I know what I was gonna say. Yeah, okay. One, so for me, I think it's really, I totally agree because I have a 16 year old daughter and it's one of those things where I spend a lot of mental energy thinking about what is ADHD, what is autism.

Katy Weber She Her (26:05.002)
Where's the overlap? Is this this? Is this that? It's really important for me, for whatever reason, to categorize these things in my head and to be like, what is causing this? What is causing this? What are we even talking about? Like, I feel like those are the questions I ask a lot on this podcast, which is like, what even is ADHD? Is it our brains that we're talking about? Is it our actions that we're talking about? Like, what? Like, I obsessively think about.

Katy Weber She Her (26:27.746)
categorizing and then they're, you know, and then I'll talk to autistic people who are like, yeah, that's, that's pretty autistic. But then I'll ask my 16 year old daughter cause she's so similar and we have a lot of the like very, you know, similar characteristics around rigid thinking. And, you know, for me, I'm sort of like, do you think you might be autistic? And she's like, I don't know, maybe like for her it. It's like,

Katy Weber She Her (26:47.558)
It's not important. Like she is. She's just is who she is. And I find it interesting that for her, she can live in that ambiguity. Whereas for me, ambiguity is torture. And I need answers and I'm not getting them and it frustrates me.

Katy Weber She Her (27:05.106)
So, but you know what you were talking about? Well, well, and not only that, but like when you were talking about the information of the diagnosis, one of the things I talk about a lot on this podcast is how it feels like I have notes in the margin, which is the name of your podcast, which I thought was really cool because that's a phrase I use all the time when I talk about what it feels like to have this diagnosis where I'm like, oh, there's little, it's like little footnotes to all of these strange behaviors that I felt a lot of shame around or, you know, or just confusion, like you said,

Vicky Quinn Fraser (27:05.538)
Yeah, I feel that. Ha ha ha.

Katy Weber She Her (27:35.34)
A lot of these things where maybe somebody either has said, or at least I've been convinced that they thought, I don't care about them because I don't remember things about them, right? Or I'm late or.

Katy Weber She Her (27:47.47)
Um, I'm not, we're not communicating well. And then you start to question in yourself, well, do I not care about them? Am I a terrible human being? Right? Like you start to internalize those beliefs and then that because that defines you. And this is such an opportunity to, to start to unravel that and redefine yourself as like, no, I always meant well, I always had the best of intentions. Uh, and to be able to embrace that identity more than the sort of accidental asshole identity that I think a lot of us. Right.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (28:16.267)
I love that accidental...

Katy Weber She Her (28:19.224)
If I could rename ADHD, that's what I think I would settle on. So now I'm curious because you have been coaching book writing. I want to talk about this because I think it's so interesting to look at through a neurodivergent lens, right? And I wrote a book and I've often talked about how the circumstances under which I wrote the book were so perfect. I don't know if I could ever replicate that.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (28:24.537)
Oh my gosh, I love that.

Katy Weber She Her (28:47.89)
Um, so how has your, because you've been doing this for so you've been doing it for at least a decade, right? How has your diagnosis changed your view of kind of what you do as a book writing coach, or I guess let's even start with sort of your experience as a book writing coach and, and you've noticed that there's neurodivergent approaches of that. And you know, that there are a lot, there is a lot of advice around book writing. That is.

Katy Weber She Her (29:13.458)
aggressively unhelpful to a neurodivergent brain. So, so I just want to know your thoughts about, you know, tailoring, tailoring what you do for toward ADHD and autistic brains.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (29:24.35)
Yeah, sure. I love your extremely diplomatic, aggressively unhelpful comment. Yeah. So, yeah, I don't know. I even I mean, entrepreneurs, I think are, you know, that certain type of person is drawn to entrepreneurship and business ownership, I think. And it tends to I think there's a high correlation of, you know, people with neurodivergence. But I had always attracted people with who are neurodivergent, and I hadn't really thought anything of it. I was just like, oh.

Katy Weber She Her (29:29.571)

Vicky Quinn Fraser (29:52.202)
all of these, I'm a weirdo, all of these weirdos are also here and that's great. And because I, by the way, think the term weirdo is great. I love it. I wear it as a, as a, as a badge. Um, but yeah. And so I think they came to me because I've always done things a little bit differently. So the, the kind of tradition, like you say, there's a lot of advice out there that I'm sure is super helpful for, um, for kind of normos, but for me, it was just, it was just not, it's like, oh, you know, you need to, you need to dedicate this like big block of time, um, to doing, to doing this book. And it's like put.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (30:21.33)
exclude everything else for the next three months and get your booked in and I'm like not even like normal people can do that like people have children and families and it's like always always rich white dudes by the way who give this advice um who have right yeah and they've got a wife in the background doing all the stuff for them so they can go and do that um I'm like yeah I need a wife what is happening um so um so yeah and so

Katy Weber She Her (30:31.382)
who go off to a cabin in the woods for three months, right?

Katy Weber She Her (30:38.518)
who's really pissed off.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (30:44.886)
There's all this advice and I can give you like my favourite one is the one that's attributed to Mark Twain, whether he said it or not, I don't know, but it's like, eat the frog first. If you tell me to eat the frog first, I will do literally nothing all day. Because if you get me to do the most difficult thing without any kind of priming or anything else, ain't going to happen. It's just not. And not only will it not happen, but I will then feel like trash for the next few days because I will hate myself for it. And it's just like the whole exhausting, you know, head talk thing.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (31:15.178)
And so I have invented what I like to call the dopamine sandwich, which is like slice of dopamine, frog, not frog, I'm vegetarian, slice of dopamine, horrible task, slice of dopamine, because bread is dopamine for me. I love bread. I feel sorry for people who can't eat bread. And so that's that's what I do. It's like I don't know. It doesn't matter what the dopamine is. But if I'm like, right, I've got to do a thing that I am not looking forward to doing, let's say receipts for my taxes, which nobody enjoys doing.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (31:41.362)
It's gonna be, I am gonna spend five minutes dancing to my favourite tune, or I'm gonna stuff my face full of my favourite chocolates, or I'm gonna play Lemmings on my phone for 10 minutes, or I'm gonna go for a walk, you know, I'll do something. And then I will ride that dopamine wave into the horrible, awful task and trick my brain into doing it before I've noticed, because once I'm in it, I can usually focus long enough to get it done. And then afterwards, I reward myself. So it's not like the traditional do the horrible thing, have a reward afterwards. It's like, no, have the rewards now and then do the thing and then reward yourself again.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (32:10.91)
So, and that's kind of one of the things that I think I bring to coaching that a lot of people, maybe people do it, but for me instinctively, it was like, oh, if you're struggling to do a thing, I'm not gonna make you sit in a chair and try and do that. That's helpful to nobody and it will make you hate the task and you never get your book done. So it's that kind of thinking about, how do people's brains actually work? And,

Vicky Quinn Fraser (32:33.642)
every ADHD person is different as well. So it's like, how does this person's brain work? What is this person struggling with? What is this person feeling when they're trying to do the thing? And I don't have, like, I have a process that works for me that I will adapt for people, but I will also create processes for people based on, you know, what they want to do and how they want to work. And, you know, another thing that I do is like, people think that writing means sitting down in front of a laptop and...

Vicky Quinn Fraser (32:56.898)
of tapping out it's like no use the voice notes on your phone I've got a client who is amazing and she writes her books on her voice recorder app on her phone whilst all like tapping into a notes app while she's walking around you know the beach or whatever and and that works really well for her and people don't realize that they're allowed that they're allowed to do that if they want to if they want to write you're allowed to do that it's really cool

Katy Weber She Her (33:20.215)
Even that phrase like the, you know, that permission to do things your own way, I think is so indicative of how we've lived our lives for so long prior to these diagnoses, which is like, you know, trying so desperately to fit in with the, you know, the common advice. And even when you were talking about tricking your brain, I'm like that even that phrase, I think that we talk about our brain, like it's this petulant, you know, immature roommate that we try to do.

Katy Weber She Her (33:47.126)
we try to deal with all the time and try to trick it to behave. But you're right. I think like there are, there are so much advice that doesn't take into consideration that how fickle momentum is for our brains, right? And the fact that one thing will work today and it's not going to work tomorrow. And we have to surf that. But yeah, like this assumption that you can just sit down and start writing is, I think, you know.

Katy Weber She Her (34:11.49)
to a total fallacy like that. We, there are ways in which we need to kind of build up, um, in, you know, that like, there's like an on-ramp to momentum. Um, you know, it's funny. I was just going to say about the eat the frog. I did not know that was a Mark Twain quote. I definitely heard that it had never made any sense to me. And it was actually the llama life creators of the app, llama life, um, who, who used the phrase eat the cake. And it was the first thing. And, um,

Vicky Quinn Fraser (34:13.53)

Vicky Quinn Fraser (34:21.79)

Katy Weber She Her (34:39.646)
Marie, who created the app, she was like, I'd never heard of that before, but I was just trying to think of like, what's the opposite of doing, you know, doing a fun thing first. But I really loved the idea of a dopamine sandwich. That makes perfect sense to me. And I think that's kind of how I operate throughout the day, yeah. I love that.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (34:51.15)

Vicky Quinn Fraser (34:55.57)
Yeah, yeah, there's like another like you're talking about kind of the momentum thing as well and that you know that that's the thing but I think even even people who are not neurodivergent really struggle with this idea of like how to get started and how to do stuff because I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding of how inspiration and motivation work and this is like exacerbated for people who are neurodivergent as well it's like people think oh I am you know I need to be inspired before I can write and I'm like that's not how this works like we don't that that's not how it works it's like inspiration comes from everywhere and you have to go out and

Vicky Quinn Fraser (35:25.602)
And you can, it doesn't have to be like, I think people think it needs to come from a specific place or like it's bestowed by the gods, the Greek gods and you know, the romantic poets have a lot to answer for. And so it's like, no, you can, you can go and do anything. It's like for me, writing is not just the writing, it's, it's the process of, it's, it's the dopamine bit before. It's like, I'm going to go out and I'm going to do the thing that I find fun because I have ideas that way. That's where my ideas come from. It's like you move your body and your brain works differently. And so there's that. And then there's motivation. It's like, oh,

Vicky Quinn Fraser (35:55.018)
I don't feel motivated to write today. And it's like, well, then you're never going to write. Like that's not how motivation works. You do the thing and then you feel motivated to carry on. And I think people don't generally understand that. It's like, I have to feel motivated, you know, to go to the gym or whatever it is that you're deciding to do. It's like, I'll go to the gym when I'm motivated. It's like, then you're never going to go. It's, you know, you start doing the thing and then you're like, oh, actually I'm quite enjoying this. And that's where the motivation comes from. And it's like, how do you, the problem isn't the motivation, it's how do you get started?

Vicky Quinn Fraser (36:23.19)
because the motivation will come once you get started. And I think people don't understand that. So like my job is always, how do I get people started? And like, I've got so many different things that I can get people to try and give people to, you know, depending on what works for them one day or another and what doesn't work. And it's just like, that I think is, is one of my biggest strengths is, is like, I'm gonna look at, I'm really, I'm gonna really listen to people. I'm not just gonna be like, I have this thing and this is gonna help you. It's like, actually.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (36:49.022)
you tell me things, tell me, I'm going to ask you questions that are probably going to make you feel really uncomfortable. And then I'm going to get you to try stuff that, you know, some of it might make you feel really uncomfortable. Some of it will work really well. Some of it won't work at all. Um, and there's that kind of permission to try stuff and have it fail and try stuff and, you know, it doesn't work for you. It doesn't mean that you're broken. It means that doesn't work for you. And so I think for me that like letting go of that shame as well, I call them the bro market is it's like, oh, if this thing doesn't work for you, then you're just not trying hard enough. And I'm just like, you.

Katy Weber She Her (37:18.382)

Vicky Quinn Fraser (37:18.794)
Um, you know, that's, that's such nonsense and it's so shamy and it's like, well, that's maybe, maybe your thing isn't that good. Maybe your thing isn't that good or maybe your thing does not work for this type of person or, you know, whatever. And so it's giving people permission to be like, try things if they don't work. Doesn't it's not your fault. Not necessarily. I mean, you know, there's a, there's a line. It's like, if you're genuinely not being asked, then I'm going to call you out on that as well, but it's like, if this thing is not working and you're really trying, then we try something else and we will, we'll find something that works.

Katy Weber She Her (37:25.546)

Katy Weber She Her (37:46.134)
Yeah, I think we also have there's like this intersection for many of us where we're fiercely self-reliant which I think comes from masking. I think it comes from difficulty communicating. I think there's a lot of reasons why we tend to want to do things on our own which is like I have a hard time explaining what I need right now so I'm just going to figure this out on my own. But at the same time really requiring

Katy Weber She Her (38:11.906)
uh, company and conversation and coaching and help to get past our own selves. And like, that feels so essential in so many aspects of life. And yet at the same time, I don't think we do that. Like, I think we tend to be like, Oh, it's up to me. I got to figure it out. I got to, I got to know what I'm doing before I even show up and, and.

Katy Weber She Her (38:33.522)
It's quite the opposite. I think like the faster you find somebody to step in and help you with this or you know, the easier it'll be to sort of get out of your own way.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (38:43.918)
That's so interesting that you say that, because I've been thinking about this a lot, and at some point I'm going to write something about it when I know more about it and I can do more research. But I do wonder how much, like, our Western capitalist system has contributed to just making these differences more pronounced and more difficult, because it's like, and especially in America, but also to an extent in the UK as well, there's this, like, individualistic kind of European...

Vicky Quinn Fraser (39:07.814)
it's all about the eye, we have to do it all on our own, we are pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps and you go elsewhere in the world and that is not a thing and it's like communities come together, people help each other, people work together and we've lost that somewhere along the way and I just think that that, like this is a really unformed thought, but I just think that that really exacerbates the issues that we face because I don't think the problem is with us, it's with the world that we are in and the box that we're trying to fit ourselves into. It's like the world has always had different types of people, one of my favorite-

Vicky Quinn Fraser (39:34.822)
neurodivergent people is Temple Grandin. And she's like, you know, if there weren't autistic people, there would, we would still be gossiping in caves. And she's totally, I've totally misquoted her, but she said something like that. And she's right. And it's like the world needs lots of different types of people. But it's set up now for a very specific type of person that really doesn't work for many people at all. It's like most people can cope in it. Neurodivergent people really struggle in it. And a very narrow band of people thrive in it. And that narrow band of people, they don't look like most of us. And so I just

Vicky Quinn Fraser (40:04.13)
Just think there's a lot to be explored there. And as you know, maybe there wouldn't be any such thing as, oh, people are neurodivergent and they're having issues if the world was different for us because there would be room for everybody, right?

Katy Weber She Her (40:15.51)
Preach, right? Yeah, and I think too, it gets us to a point where we feel shame around asking for help. Like we have decided, and not we as an individually, we have decided this for ourselves. I mean, the greater we, but the royal we. But like this idea that we...

Katy Weber She Her (40:37.786)
It's a failure to ask for help, right? That we have to wait until we have absolutely are at our wits end before we can invite help as opposed to bringing it in even before you're struggling. Like even before you've encountered paralysis or issues to just say, I anticipate that this is gonna be hard for me so I'm worth inviting help, right? As opposed to like, I have to somehow show that I have.

Katy Weber She Her (41:02.286)
exhausted all of my own resources before I've asked for somebody else's because we feel so much shame around being in position. And you know, we've, we feel like asking for help isn't in position. So all of that, I feel like, yes, I feel like it's probably the Protestant work ethic and capitalism. And I think it's more, you know, it's more prominent in women in terms of how we're socialized. And yeah, those are all those, those, see, those are all the questions where I'm like, are we talking about ADHD still? Or are we just talking about capitalism and feminism?

Vicky Quinn Fraser (41:31.466)

Katy Weber She Her (41:32.52)
Um, right? Yeah. But now one of the things that I always feel like I struggle with with writing, because I used to be a much more prolific writer and reader, uh, when I was younger. And I feel that as I get older, it's re it's almost, I call it like.

Katy Weber She Her (41:47.242)
too much information syndrome. Like if you were to ask me to write an essay about something I know nothing about, I would find that really easy because I'll be like, okay, well, I'll just have to go research it really quickly. And you know, I think the less you know about something, the easier it is to write, but you can get into a situation where you know too much and then it becomes really difficult to process.

Katy Weber She Her (42:08.138)
where to start and like to organize those thoughts. And then you're getting your own way. Cause you're like, well, there's always another side to that. And you know, you start to argue with yourself. So that's what I always find really complicated about writing, which is I just, it's like, especially when it comes to writing about ADHD, I'm just like, I, I, my brain is too full. Like I don't know how to sort through that trash. What that can't, that has to be a common.

Katy Weber She Her (42:33.706)
problem when it comes to especially writing nonfiction, right? Like I feel like that has gotten worse for me as I've gotten older.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (42:41.994)
Yeah, it is. And I totally understand because I have a similar thing where I'm like, oh, I want to say all of the things. I've got too much information in my head. And it just becomes this kind of maelstrom of nonsense. It doesn't make any sense. And so, yeah, there's, I mean, there's a few things that I do. And one of the things that I do is I literally force myself to write stuff out. And like, I don't allow myself to stop. So I will be like, I'm only for five minutes. It's like, I'm not going to make myself do this for, you know.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (43:07.198)
loads of time is I'm going to spend five minutes or 10 minutes and I am not allowed to stop writing. It's like I literally have to write whatever comes out of my head. And I found that for me, that can be a really useful way of like the thing that is important to be at the moment will come out. Like if I do that, it will come out because I can't physically do lots of things at the same time. So that's, that's one thing that I, that I do that I find really useful. But another thing is, and I think a lot of people are surprised by the simplicity of this is your

Vicky Quinn Fraser (43:32.834)
Just because you're not gonna write about something specific now, it doesn't mean that you discard it forever. And so it's like, if you're having, like, I have at least one notebook by the side of me at all times, like a physical paper one. And so if I'm like trying to work on one thing and I have other things popping into my head, they go straight into my journal. Because then I don't forget about them. They're there. I have like different places that I can put them. I've got Post-it notes, I've got like coloured pens and I kind of...

Vicky Quinn Fraser (44:00.366)
I say I color code everything, that's not true. It's just stuff has different colors and then I look at it. Um, but yeah, there's, so I, I do struggle with that as well. Um, I do struggle with the whole, I've got too much information in my head. Um, and what I try and do is start wide and then narrow down. So I'm like, oh, I've got this, I've got that like.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (44:17.31)
I love digging deep because I think another problem that we've got with the modern world, I sound like a really old person now, with this modern world is like everything is so surface and brief and I think that's why people shout at each other on the internet because there's no room for nuance, there's no room for depth and it's like all surface level hot takes and so one of the things that I do, I run this thing called Microbook Magic, I get people to write tiny little books and the thing that I love about it is...

Katy Weber She Her (44:22.434)
I'm sorry.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (44:43.254)
that kind of forces you to go really deep and really narrow into one thing. So it's like, I've got this idea. I want to write about all these other things. I'm going to make the notes on them, but actually how deep can I go into this one single idea and how can I narrow it down even further? And, you know, and then can I narrow that down even further? And then, you know, can I narrow that down just to one sentence? And maybe then I can start expanding it out a little bit. And so it's like this kind of expanding and contracting mushroom cloud of...

Vicky Quinn Fraser (45:10.282)
of stuff and out of it will come all sorts of other ideas for micro books as well. But like, I find that drilling right down to the heart of something to be really, really useful, which I think can be like really useful for people with ADHD because we're really good at hyper-focusing on the stuff that we're interested in. So it's like, how I'm going to go down this wormhole of like, um, why are, why do goats smell the way they do? And suddenly you're down to the goat smelling molecule, which is an actual molecule. Um, and then, and then it's like, Oh, I can come up from that. Like, what else can you do with goat smell molecules?

Katy Weber She Her (45:44.138)
Right? I would much rather write a book about that than a book about something I talk about all the time. It's so true. Gosh, I think you know, I feel like that was something that was very helpful for me when I was writing my book again, where it was like it was it was all about going going wide and then getting really, really narrow and going wide and getting narrow and and kind of taking myself out of.

Katy Weber She Her (46:07.114)
the process and becoming, you know, like, I don't know, I don't know if I'm making any sense. But you know, taking myself out of the book and looking at it from very different angles all the time. But again, I don't know.

Katy Weber She Her (46:22.002)
It's one of those things I think a lot of us feel like we've got so many books in us and we're so much we know and we're so fascinated. Um, but we don't know where to start. So that's where we need people like you. And then do you do like, do you work only one-on-one? Do you, would you ever do like courses? Cause it feels like a lot of this could lend it to a lot of sort of guided journaling, guided, um, work in a group. I don't know.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (46:46.898)
Yeah, so I always have like a thousand ideas for things that I want to do and then I have to run them by. My husband is great at reigning me in, he's just like, he reminds me of things or he'll be like, come back to me in a week if you're still interested in it and I'll respond about it. But yeah, I do, I work, I love working one-on-one with people but like the micro book thing that I do, that's like a small group thing and it lasts for, I'm expanding it to five or six weeks actually, but that's a small group thing and I like to have, you know, 10, 15 people.

Katy Weber She Her (46:50.498)
I'm sorry.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (47:14.914)
doing that at a time and that is that's kind of a guided thing. So it's I will give people everything that they need to be able to do it. I will give them the guidance and, you know, those group calls and that kind of thing. So, yeah, I do. I don't do any courses at the moment, as in you can't kind of. And part of the reason for that is actually because of the whole trouble that I've had with the this is the one size fits all. And I haven't found a way yet to create. I'm going to work on it to create a course.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (47:41.942)
that works for people because people's writing, like even not neurodivergent people are, everyone's so different, everyone's writing style is so different, everyone's writing process is so different that it's just, I'm a bit reluctant because I've seen quite a few book writing courses out there that are like, this is the way you do it. And they either make me roll my eyes or give me the rage because it's like, well, quite often what people are doing is teaching other people how to, how they would write a book. And that's not

Vicky Quinn Fraser (48:08.534)
helpful. I mean, it can be useful for people to read about other people's writing. Like, I love reading books by Margaret Atwood's book and Bird by Bird by Anne Lamott. It's like, this is my writing process. I love that. But nowhere in those books are they saying, this is how you're supposed to do it. And I think that's the difference for me. It's like, I don't want to create something where I'm like, this is my process and you have to use this process because for me, that was always one of the biggest problems was, well, this didn't work for me.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (48:34.934)
so what's wrong with me? And so I've been a bit reluctant to do it like that but I am going to try and find a way because I feel like there must be a way somehow. But at the moment it's kind of small groups or one-to-one.

Katy Weber She Her (48:43.95)
Yeah. Oh, now I want to take your course. Well, it's you know, it's funny because the the course that I had taken when I wrote my book, the single biggest motivating factor was the fact that they there was a time.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (48:47.854)
I'm sorry.

Katy Weber She Her (49:00.226)
know deadline and if you have you had your book written and completed and published by the deadline they you know chose the 10 best books and you got your money back from the tuition of the course and that was the biggest motivator for me this was all before i was diagnosed but now i look back and i was like oh yeah that's that's totally what i would i'm i'm cheap enough that that was like such a motivator for me to be like i'll get all of my money back um

Vicky Quinn Fraser (49:01.698)

Vicky Quinn Fraser (49:12.055)
Oh wow.

Katy Weber She Her (49:26.614)
But there was the reason why they could do that is because so many people were in this course that they could afford to give 10 people their money back. And I just can't help but think about like all of the people that didn't get their book written and spent the money and still at the end of the day, we're like, Oh, I guess I'll never write, you know, like I, I don't know. My heart goes out to all those people who, who it didn't work for them because I feel like you're right. It is such, it's so individualized in terms of what's going to motivate you and what's going to work. And, um, yeah.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (49:48.627)

Vicky Quinn Fraser (49:54.763)
Yeah, I feel like, I should say no shade to anybody who's running that kind of thing. Like people do their own thing and all the rest of it. I think in a lot of ways that's a really good idea is like if you get your books in that, you know, you get your money back. But in other ways, I'm a bit like, not sure about that for a variety of reasons. But yeah, it's just like that. I don't know. My goal is always for people to get their books done, but also for them to be like really happy with them and proud of them as well. And so...

Vicky Quinn Fraser (50:23.218)
Yeah, I just feel like I like to take a bit more of an individualistic approach than kind of have a lot of people come through.

Katy Weber She Her (50:28.706)
Oh, that's amazing. So now is there, um, is there advice that you give to an aspiring neurodivergent writer who feels like they have a book in them and they're just like, I'll never get, I'll never get past all of this clutter of my head.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (50:46.27)
Yeah, definitely. And I would say that it is entirely possible for anyone to write a book if they want to. Most people, like I'm going to be honest, most people are not going to do it. They're just not. And if you look at the stats, like every, almost everybody says they want to write a book, almost nobody does it. So, so there's that. But I would also say you really have to want to do it as well. Because I think a lot of people can be like, oh, somebody's told me I should write a book. So I should write a book.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (51:10.298)
or I should write a book for my business because of this reason or I should write a book because of whatever other reason they're telling themselves. And it's like, well, I don't like the word should. My friend Jocelyn calls it shoulding and musterbating. And they're not useful. Yeah, all credit to Jocelyn for that one. But yeah, I just I just don't like that word. It's it's shame laden and it's stressful. And, you know, I do really well with deadlines, but the deadline is because I want to meet them, not because not because I'm being.

Katy Weber She Her (51:22.61)
I haven't heard musterbait, that's a good one. Ha ha.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (51:38.746)
of push. So I would say for a start, how you know, how passionate are you about writing a book? Because if you're not, then it's going to be really difficult for you if you get it done at all. And secondly, kind of really think about what you want. If you're dead set on writing a book and you really want to do it, it's like, what do you want to write? Like what is enjoyable for you? Because I think quite often people desperately want to write a book, but then they start on something that doesn't light them up. And so that again, it's always going to be difficult.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (52:04.402)
And I find the people that do the best are the ones who are willing to really look at what they want to do and what they want to say and how they want to say it. And are also willing to write an absolute pile of shite, frankly, because like that's the other thing is like we set out, we look at people's finished books and we're like, ah, they wrote a book, I must write a book like that. And it's like, that is not what the book looked like to start with. The book looked like a big pile of poo. I can guarantee it. And so like I always say to people, because this is one of the

Katy Weber She Her (52:25.186)
I'm sorry.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (52:31.586)
biggest things I guess in the way people will say they haven't got time, they haven't got this, but I think a lot of the time it comes down to I'm scared it's going to be rubbish and it's like, yeah, your first draft is going to be rubbish. I'm just going to say that right now. It's going to be rubbish. So instead of making you feel bad, why don't you set out to write a big pile of crap? Like that's what I say to people set out to write a big pile of crap. Doesn't matter if it's a mess. Doesn't matter if it's all over the place. That's, you know, got plenty of time afterwards to kind of come and do things. I can't remember which writer said you can't edit a blank page, but it's true.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (52:59.274)
So like give yourself permission to be terrible at it to start with. And that's where the fun is because then we get to learn how to make it better. And that for me is where the joy is, is like, yeah, sometimes I will write a really great sentence off the bat or a really great paragraph. And I'll be like, that is great how it is. It doesn't happen very often. And like for the rest of the time, I'm like, oh, that's nonsense. But the idea is in there, you know, the idea is in there and I can pull it out and make it into something worth reading. So my biggest piece of advice is give yourself permission to write crap and then work from there.

Katy Weber She Her (53:28.174)
Yeah, right. And I mean, I feel like we could probably talk for another hour about perfectionism and ADHD and masking and all of that. So you had actually mentioned in your Instagram, there was a book that had was the best book that you had ever read about overcoming perfectionism. Do you know off the top of your head what that book was? I can put a link to it in the show notes because I remember seeing that in your Instagram that you had shared this book.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (53:45.87)
Oh, memory. Yeah, it was one of my clients. She, it was a micro book, yeah. And she wrote a little book called Stop Falling Short. Stop Falling Short with air quotes. I need to stop doing that. Stop Falling Short. And, but she, so the reason that I loved it is because she took it from an abstract concept because humans are not good with abstract concepts, most of us.

Katy Weber She Her (53:54.047)
It was a micro book, right?

Katy Weber She Her (54:03.682)
I'm sorry.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (54:12.914)
And she took it from this kind of idea of perfectionism, blah, and put it into your body. And so she gets you to think about what's happening in your body and use your physiology and your breath and your actions to change the way your brain thinks about things. And I just loved it. It really spoke to me because I was just like, oh, I know what perfectionism is. I'm not interested in like more abstract psychobabble. I wanna know what I can do about it. And that...

Vicky Quinn Fraser (54:40.21)
was the magic of this book for me was that she gave she gives you it's mostly kind of breathing exercise but also kind of a few thought experiments a few little bits and pieces to do there's not too much stuff to do and she wanted to keep it really light and simple but the the core of it is you know change change the way you breathe and change the way you're you know you are in your body to help you to shift the perfectionism thing out and i'm explaining it very badly it's a very good book

Katy Weber She Her (55:07.85)
Now are they, are the microbooks for sale? Like could I find it on on Amazon or? Okay.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (55:12.654)
Yeah, it is on Amazon. I bought it from, I bought a copy myself from Amazon. So yes, her name is Joanna McRae.

Katy Weber She Her (55:17.454)
Oh, okay, great. I'll put a link to that as well as your you have several boxes too that we can find out your website, right, which is Oh, you know what I also wanted to ask you and forgot, which is what is the what is the significance of tiny beetle steps?

Vicky Quinn Fraser (55:25.698)

Vicky Quinn Fraser (55:34.606)
Oh, okay, so yeah, this right. So people often say, just start. Yeah. So people always say, I'll start with baby steps, but baby steps are actually quite big. And I think for a lot of people, if you're like learning something new, and especially if you've got the curse of knowledge, as you've already mentioned, it's like, you know all this stuff, you forget what it's like right at the beginning. And so I'm like, how like...

Katy Weber She Her (55:39.222)
This is her and Vicky's Instagram account, by the way. Sorry.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (55:59.318)
make it so tiny you can't fail. Like if you're really struggling, and this goes back to, and I can't remember her name, but she wrote a book called The Science of Stuck, which I heard on the You Are Not So Smart podcast. This is where I buy all my books from listening to podcasts. And she talked about, and I loved it because she articulated what I had been thinking, was if you're stuck, like procrastinating or whatever, just move, like it might be just shift face in another direction. It might be...

Vicky Quinn Fraser (56:28.11)
cross your legs one side to the other. It's like, don't try and climb the mountain from being on the sofa, because it ain't gonna happen. So her thinking is movement changes your brain, right? The changing your state changes your brain, gets you unstuck in that way. And so that was my thinking behind, that was always my thinking behind tiny beetle steps. I was like, don't try and do it in baby steps, they're too big. It's like, what is the tiniest, tiniest step that you can possibly do? Make it so small you can't fail.

Katy Weber She Her (56:54.514)
I love that. That's awesome. Um, okay. Well, we're going to have a log list of links, uh, for books to put in the episode show notes. I love that. Awesome. Okay. So, um, remind me, what is your website? Gosh, I'm totally blanking. Oh, Moxie books. Okay. Now is that, um, is that your imprint or what is the, what is Moxie books?

Vicky Quinn Fraser (57:10.474)
That's okay, it's

Vicky Quinn Fraser (57:19.618)
So that is my trading name and also my publishing imprint for my books as well. So yeah.

Katy Weber She Her (57:27.294)
Awesome. Wonderful. And now if somebody wants to work with you one on one, there's a lot of information on your website. Is that the best way to reach out to you?

Vicky Quinn Fraser (57:35.39)
Yeah, best way is to email me vicki at or DM me on Instagram or LinkedIn is probably the best place to find me or fill in my contact form on my website.

Katy Weber She Her (57:46.974)
Awesome. Well, what an incredible service and a wonderful way to I feel like very grateful that that this sort of coaching exists because I think it is really important for us to get past get out of our own way but also to realize that it's not something we're going to miraculously figure out how to do on our own. So stop pretending that you are.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (58:12.66)

Katy Weber She Her (58:13.29)
Um, no wonder. Okay. So now before we go, can you, do you have a, an alternate name for ADHD? If you could rename it.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (58:20.566)
Yeah, there are bees in my brain.

Katy Weber She Her (58:22.419)
Oh, nice!

Vicky Quinn Fraser (58:25.038)
It's a constant buzzing and they're all flying in different directions.

Katy Weber She Her (58:29.62)
See, that is something I would have related to if somebody had asked me, do you know, do you think you have ADHD? If I knew it was, do you think you have bees in your brain? I'd be like, uh-huh, yes. Right? That's a good one. Yeah, I definitely lean toward those ones that are much more literal than, you know, the clinical ones about.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (58:40.074)

Katy Weber She Her (58:50.65)
executive function and regulation. And that's I was like that I never would have related to any of that before my diagnosis. But if you told me that like, I constantly feel like I'm forgetting things, and there's gnats flying around my head, I would have been like, Yeah, that describes my experience.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (59:05.47)
Yeah, like the very name is like deficit and disorder. I am a deficit and I am disordered. And I'm like, no, I am not a deficit. I'm awesome. And the world is disordered. So yeah.

Katy Weber She Her (59:09.695)

Katy Weber She Her (59:19.109)
I love it. Well, thank you, Vicki. This has been great. I feel like I laughed a lot. This has been really delightful. Thank you so much. And yeah, thanks for sharing your story too. It's been lovely having you.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (59:23.586)
Thank you so much.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (59:31.086)
Oh, thank you so much for having me on. I've had an absolute whale of a time and I really, I love your podcast so much. It's really helped me so very much. So thank you.

Katy Weber She Her (59:38.742)
Thank you. Here's where we awkwardly say thank you over and over again.

Vicky Quinn Fraser (59:43.142)
Yeah, like thank you, no thank you, no thank you.