Rae Jacobson: The diagnosis boom … and backlash

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Episode 204 with Rae Jacobson.

“There is a difference between traits and impairment. If we dilute the idea of ADHD into something that just seems familiar, we risk shutting out the people who really need help.”

Rae is a journalist, an ADHD and learning disorders expert, and the Lead of Insight at Understood, where she also hosts the podcast Hyperfocus. Rae has spent over 20 years digging into the stories and science of neurodivergence. She’s a former senior editor at the Child Mind Institute, and her work has appeared in New York Magazine, the Daily Beast, Rolling Stone, Parenting, American Girl, and more.

Rae and I talk about her very winding path to an ADHD diagnosis: growing up as the “smart kid who did terribly at school,” getting diagnosed with LD-NOS, dyscalculia, and dysgraphia, and then finally, in her early 20s, realizing she has ADHD. Rae shares the life-changing experience of attending Landmark College — a school specifically for students with ADHD and learning disabilities.

We also wrestle with the current ADHD discourse: the difference between relatable traits and true impairment, what happens when “everyone has ADHD,” and why that can both broaden awareness and quietly shut people out of care. We talk about internalized ableism, the ongoing cycles of skepticism (“quit your whining”) and backlash online, and the need for voices that pair lived experience with journalistic fact-checking.

And of course, we talk about Hyperfocus, Rae’s podcast at Understood that zeroes in on what fascinates us most about ADHD, mental health, and learning.

Website: Understood.org

Instagram: @understoodorg

Links & Resources:

The Berkeley Girls with ADHD Longitudinal Study (S. Hinshaw)

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Episode edited by E Podcast Productions

Find the transcript of this episode at www.womenandadhd.com/transcripts

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Women & ADHD coaching: www.womenandadhd.com/coaching

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Work 1-on-1 with Katy: www.womenandadhd.com/katy

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Order the “Hey, it’s ADHD!” course: www.womenandadhd.com/adhdcourse

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Did you love this episode? Click here to pledge a one-time donation to the podcast!

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If you are a woman who was diagnosed with ADHD and you’d like to apply to be a guest on this podcast, visit womenandadhd.com/podcastguest.

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Rae Jacobson 0:00
All I wanted was just to be able to fit in with my friends. You know, it wasn't that I was such a joiner, but like, I just wanted to be the person who wasn't in trouble. And that's a really powerful thing. And so when people tell you you need help, and you can see very clearly the consequences when you don't get the help or accept the help, it doesn't make you feel like, wow, I'm worthy of like this support. It makes you feel like I guess without this, I can't do it. I hope now, and I hope this isn't changing in our current situation, that the way that we talk about all of this is pretty different than it was when I was a

Katy Weber 0:38
kid. Hello and welcome to the women and ADHD podcast. I'm your host. Katy Weber, I was diagnosed with ADHD at the age of 45 and it completely turned my world upside down. I've been looking back at so much of my life, school, jobs, my relationships, all of it with this new lens, and it has been nothing short of overwhelming. I quickly discovered I was not the only woman to have this experience, and now I interview other women who, like me, discovered in adulthood they have ADHD and are finally feeling like they understand who they are and how to best lean into their strengths, both professionally and personally. Hello, hello, hello, you are in for a fantastic episode today. But before we get started, I want to remind you that wherever you are on your ADHD journey, women and adhd.com has the resources to meet you where you're at if you're in learning mode, we have tons of free support, downloadable infographics, comprehensive guides and our recommendations for self assessments for women, and, of course, more than 200 episodes of this podcast. If you're looking for more structure, but you need flexibility, our self led course, called Hey, it's ADHD, is a great next step you can take at your own pace. And if you're ready for more personalized help, our ADHD coaching team is here for you with strengths based support to help you move past the overwhelm and feel more like yourself again. Just head to women and adhd.com whether you're dipping a toe in or you're ready for deeper guidance, take what you need when you need it. We're here for you whenever you're ready. Again. That's women and adhd.com Okay, here we are at episode 204 in which I interview Ray Jacobson. Ray is a journalist, an ADHD and learning disorders expert and the lead of insight at understood, where she also hosts the podcast hyper focus. Ray has spent over 20 years digging into the stories and science of neuro divergence. She's a former senior editor of the child MIND Institute, and her work has appeared in New York Magazine, The Daily Beast Rolling Stone parenting, American Girl and more, Ray and I talk about her very winding path to an ADHD diagnosis, growing up as the, quote, smart kid who did terribly at school, getting labeled with learning disorders like dyscalculia and dysgraphia. And finally, in her early 20s, ADHD, Ray shares the life changing experience of attending Landmark College, a school specifically for students with ADHD and learning disabilities. And we also discuss the current ADHD discourse and the difference between relatable traits on Tiktok and true impairment. We also talk about this notion that everybody has ADHD now, and why widening the neurodivergent umbrella can both broaden awareness and quietly alienate others. We talk about internalized ableism, the ongoing cycles of skepticism and backlash online and the need for voices that pair lived experience with journalistic fact checking. And of course, we talk all about hyper focus raise podcasts and understood that zeros in on what fascinates us most about ADHD, mental health and learning. So here's my conversation with Ray. Enjoy. Hi Ray, thank you for being on women and ADHD. It's so nice to have you.

Rae Jacobson 3:55
Hi Katy, thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here

Katy Weber 3:58
so I understand that you were diagnosed with dyscalculia as a child, and then you were later diagnosed with ADHD. Right, right, yeah. And so I'm mostly curious. I mean, I have, I've had guests who have been diagnosed with some sort of neurodivergent learning disorder in childhood, and then later were diagnosed with ADHD. I'm sort of curious, from your point of view, being diagnosed in your early 20s, what was happening around that time that made you or the people around you to think, okay, maybe this is actually ADHD, or maybe ADHD is also in the mix.

Rae Jacobson 4:32
So I you say I got diagnosed with dyscalculia as a kid, which is sort of true, but what I was really diagnosed with was, and I think probably a lot of our listeners might have experienced something similar if they're close to my age and female. LD, nos, so learning disability, not otherwise specified, because I had what we now feel very familiar about, but at the time, you know, felt quite unique. I have a high IQ, I was. Was very verbal, very chatty, very, you know, performed well in terms of, like, Oh, that's a smart kid. You know, that was a thing I was good at, and did terribly at school. I mean, weeping over homework, all the classic signs, and I do have dyscalculia, and they at that point still sort of were not sure, like, it seemed like I should be doing better. You know, the discrepancy between ability and aptitude was pretty clear in math. For example, my SAT score was an 800 on the verbal and a 300 on the math, which you get for writing your name correctly. So it was, like, pretty clear. But I also had dysgraphia and some sort of spatial stuff that was, like, a little bit complicating, I think, for folks and the ADHD got kind of lost in that bog, I think. And so for a long time, I thought I didn't have ADHD, despite occasionally trying medication for it, and being like, really. Like, if you were to write down all of my ADHD symptoms, you'd be like, Oh, that is a person with an intent of ADHD. Like, there is nothing about this that is unusual or unexpected, like textbook. But in the 1980s girls didn't have ADHD and inattentive ADHD really wasn't something that we talked about in the way we do now, as you well know. So it wasn't until I was 21 and I had failed out of college, and I had gone to multiple high schools, and I was just dipping my toes, sort of back in the water of education, after doing a bunch of crummy jobs and sort of, you know, wandering the wilderness for a while at the school called Landmark College. Have you ever heard of that? No, it's a, sort of an unusual place, but it might be interesting to the people listening your show. It's a school that is just for students with learning disabilities in New York, it's in Vermont. Vermont, okay, yeah, lovely, beautiful Vermont. There's hills. It's very nice. As a New Yorker, I was like, it's beautiful here. Like, wow, there's trees everywhere. So very excited to be in Vermont, but I learned about it by genuinely sheer luck. My mom, who also has ADHD, had gone to a school called Windham College in Vermont that shut down, I think, because they allowed you to have both bongs and dogs in the dorm. So it didn't go well, but it became landmark in the 1980s and it was just for kids with ADHD and specific learning disabilities. Then and Now, they cover kids on the spectrum, and it's a four year college, but when but when I went, it was two years, and I just was looking for any lifeline. I was so sort of deep in the bell jar, and just wanted to know, like, you know, where does this go? Like, how do I get out of this? We went up to see the school and they it was like a revelation. I had never heard people talk about learning differently. I'd never heard people talk about ADHD was completely new to me. You know, it had just been adults telling me what was wrong with me before. It was the first time I'd heard people my own age speak about it at all. And so I went there, and I saw one of the, you know, they have coaches there, and I talked to one, and they said, she said, you don't think you have ADHD. And I said, No, you know, no one ever told me that I did. She said, Oh, you definitely do, like you should definitely go get tested. So I went finally, you know, at home saw got the full battery of tests, and the woman, again, said, basically the same shit. No one ever told you you have ADHD. I said, No. She said, your testing is Bell clear. And I burst into tears because I was so relieved to finally know what this was, because by then, I kind of understood about ADHD. I'd see my friends who had it, and I kept being like, God, it sounds like me, but it's guess it's not, because they would have told me by now, and of course, not. So that was my sort of diagnosis. Aha. Story was this sort of, maybe not the big light bulb, but a rambling, kind of like, you know, like in horror movies, where the the lights light up as they walk down the corridor. It was more like,

Katy Weber 8:44
I love that visual. I mean, honestly, I feel, still think a lot of the time there's that rambling way to the diagnosis, and then also even post diagnosis. A lot of what I think we both talked about on our podcast, of like, What even is this? Why is there such stigma still, you know, why does it feel like everybody is suddenly has ADHD and right? And why do people keep rolling their eyes? Still, right? Like it feels like suddenly, it felt like it was this answer to all of my seemingly random struggles over the course of my life. But now there's this new pushback about, like, oh for Christ's sake. Like, quit your whining, and you know, like, I don't feel like that inner voice that internalized ableism magically went away. It's just changed its tone.

Rae Jacobson 9:30
Yeah, it sounds a lot more like the internet now, right?

Katy Weber 9:35
So you've been a journalist for, I guess, how many years at this

Rae Jacobson 9:40
point, bizarrely, like, almost 20 I don't

Speaker 1 9:43
think it's bizarre at all. I feel like journalism is filled with people with ADHD,

Rae Jacobson 9:47
no, no. I just, I was like, God, if I Am I old enough to have been a journalist for 20 years?

Katy Weber 9:51
But, oh, obviously, okay, because I often when, like, you know, I find that most of us have like, we meander right? Let's like every. Two years, you kind of shift to a different place or a different job, or different like, I've been so many different jobs at this point.

Rae Jacobson 10:06
What was your strangest job? What was your I'm always interested in this professor, people with ADHD, what's the weirdest job you've ever had? I mean,

Katy Weber 10:12
I would say the weirdest job I've ever had was I was a Weight Watchers leader.

Rae Jacobson 10:18
Wow, that's a good one, which

Katy Weber 10:20
kind of got me so it was basically like, you know, we had moved from the city up to the Hudson Valley, and I was a stay at home mom, because I really struggled with my first kid in the city. And was sort of like, if we ever have another kid, I'm going to have to be in a situation where I'm a stay at home mom. It wasn't easier, spoiler alert, it was actually hard in a whole new way. But this was all pre diagnosis. So anyway, I was like a stay at home mom for many years and trying to do as many, you know, just fill my life with things, and ended up at Weight Watchers and then ended up becoming a Weight Watchers leader. It's not something I talk about very much right now, because I feel like, I feel like I should have a T shirt that said I went to Weight Watchers, and all it gave me was this binge eating disorder. But it led to me being actually that would do, well, I know, right.

Rae Jacobson 11:08
Isn't that a good idea? That t shirt? I feel like a lot of people would buy that. Yeah, but Weight

Katy Weber 11:12
Watchers, and then the fall, you know, the binge eating disorder that came from Weight Watchers led me to becoming a health coach, an anti diet health coach, and it was really interesting when I got my ADHD diagnosis, looking back and being like, binge eating, okay, right? That's high comorbidity. Yes, such a high comorbidity, and wanting to go back and talk to all my old health coaching clients and be like, guess what? We all have ADHD, right? Hey, but I'm curious from somebody who is diet was diagnosed pre pandemic. I guess, like, for me, it's like there's pre pandemic and post pandemic in terms of the ADHD landscape, that's how I understand it. Because I was diagnosed right at 20 in 2020, as you've been watching it with the curiosity of a journalist. What do you think about the way that we are talking about it now. I mean, it must like, for me, it feels like I was diagnosed, kind of like moving to a new neighborhood in New York, right where it's like you get to a new neighborhood and automatically, it's like it peaks in coolness, right as you're there, and everybody who comes afterwards,

Rae Jacobson 12:17
just like a Johnny come lately. Yes, I know what you read,

Katy Weber 12:21
right, but I feel that way sometimes about my own ADHD diagnosis, where I'm like, I got diagnosed with ADHD before. It was cool. I didn't I got diagnosed in 2020 but there's a sense of looking at it, the swell of now it feels like everybody has it. Did it feel that way for you, specifically from 2020 on? Or did it feel that way for you when you were diagnosed? Like, did you look at everybody around you the way I feel like I do sometimes and think, oh my god, like, you have it, you have it, you have it.

Rae Jacobson 12:51
I think for me, because I spent so much of my life like my ADHD was not that anyone isn't significant, but I it was pretty bad, like, in terms of how the impact on my life was pretty serious, like a lot of the classic ADHD challenges that you sort of hear about as, like, the extremes I experienced, like school failure, job loss, you know, trouble with drugs, more of, sort of like just the the deep lack of self esteem that You get. Like, you know, we all have various versions of all of these things, like, whether it's experiencing binge eating disorder after, like, dealing with Weight Watchers or, like, going, you know, too far down the rabbit hole with X, Y or Z. Like, there's a million ways that ADHD affects your life. Mine were pretty classic and but the biggest one, and this is personal, but is also, I think, kind of universal. Was a sense of being like, and I say this a lot like the one of these things that is not like the others, like I felt very different in a bad way, like, special in all the wrong ways. You know, I was the kid getting pulled out. I was the kid who is like, you know, held back for recess because she didn't do her homework and she never did her homework. I won an award for being spaced out in school when everybody else got awards for, you know, like, being a great basketball player or whatever. Like, it was a very sort of specific ADHD path that was carved in a way that felt like a canyon, like I didn't have anywhere else that I could, like, turn off, you know, and I was able to, like, find places where I could use who I am to find relationships and comfort. You know, I have great friendships, and I'm very lucky that, like, I was always able to like, like, if I had a teacher who was having trouble with their boyfriend, I'd be like, let's talk about it. I can help you, and they would almost always tell me, and I can give good advice. You know, we all have our ways, but the core of everything for me for so long, was like, I can I swear on this podcast, yeah, yeah. Like, I am a fuck up. I am a fuck up, and this is my core self, and everything else is just window dressing. And that's who I am, and that's who I'm always going to be. And because I'm like that, I have no idea how to get a job. I have no idea how to become somebody who I like more. I have no idea how to be anything other than like the person I am now, which felt like somebody who was like, constantly tap dancing to be like, how can I make you happy and make things okay for people while you just like, don't look at my closet and don't look at my room and don't look at me and don't look at my fingernails, because my nail positive, like every part of me felt like it was somehow something to be like, kept back. So when I got diagnosed, it was so early in our conversation about women with ADHD, I was 21 I'm 42 now. So do the math that I cannot do to tell me when that was. But you know, it's not something that felt like I wanted. I wanted all the people to come to my neighborhood so badly because I didn't know how to talk about it. I wanted anyone to talk about it with. And there was none of this stuff about women now, like I when I was about 23 I didn't know how else to talk about it. And landmark gave me an opportunity, because I had all these friends all of a sudden, these people who were like, brilliant and cool and so funny and so smart and so much like the people that I loved and wanted to be around, who also had ADHD, who also had dyslexia, who also I don't have dyslexia, also had learning disabilities. And it was, like revelatory for me, like I felt so glad to be a part of that. It made was like the most changing thing for me. The most beneficial thing for me was being around these other wonderful people who also had learning disabilities, because before that, I just felt like, you know, the odd thing that doesn't fit in the hole, because I have all these incredible friends I grew up with. I'm very lucky to, like, still be friends with the people I've known all my life. But they are, you know, they went to top tier colleges. They were star students. They're amazing. Three of them are doctors, which, I don't know if you can attribute that to us all being Jewish from New York, but like, you know, it's like these, I had these kind of high achieving friends, and I remember when they were looking at colleges, and I was just not saying anything, because I knew I wasn't going to get to go anywhere near what was going to, you know, I was shocked. I got to college at all. So it's kind of like when you ask that, I think my feeling is that at that time, all I wanted was to feel like I belonged anywhere, and that had not been my experience at all. And when I finally found, like that little club of other people who could talk about it, it was such an unbelievable relief. Like I felt like I finally, you know, like kind of like little Match Girl style, like I flipped and I was inside finally, although I think at the end of that story, she actually burns herself to death. But taking that away, I was in, in the warm window, you know, and that felt really good to me. Flash forward to 2020, in the interim of that, like I became a journalist. I started working in ADHD. I got a Master's in Counseling. I did all of these things specifically to bring the conversation about ADHD and women to the fore. I specialized in it. When I was working with clients. I talked about it every chance I got. People got really sick of hearing me talk about it. I used to work at a place called the child MIND Institute, which is here. I was their senior editor. I wrote our first articles on girls with ADHD. I was sort of like a very strong advocate for it. So when 2020 came, and I had experienced all this time of being like, please pay attention to us. Please, like, please look around, it was less like, I think you have it and I think you have it and I think you have it, and more like, look, this is something we need to be focusing on. Because I could see, like, you know, I knew the suffering that happens when you don't know. And then, when that happened, I was so excited. And then, and maybe you have an opinion on this too, what I call the ADHD cycle kicked in, right? Like, people start talking about ADHD, and then people start talking about, like, well, isn't it real? Is it something you could just like, maybe do better at? Oh, you know what it is. It's cheating. It's a people and it always comes down. And this is my thing, it always comes down to people, if they can relate to it, but it's not harming them. They dismiss it like, I've lost my keys. I've had a hard time paying attention in boring lectures. I sometimes lose things and forget things, and I'm late for things like, what is the issue? Why are you having all these complaints? Like, there's that piece of it. But I do think, and I wish I were wrong about this, but I do think a lot of it centers on the medication that you get. People see amphetamines as the medication that is accessible, and they become instantly skeptical and instantly focused on the idea that this is somehow cheating or drug seeking, or like a ploy to get this thing that is illegal. So it's like it's twisted up in all of these different strands. And what you get in the end is people who are like, either oversimplifying, because so much of it is relatable and drawing forth, like, I think a lot of people who would benefit from a deeper look at what is actually going on with them, like ADHD can look like so many other things, or people who are like, well, they just want the drugs. And none of that is accurate. So it's less about like, don't move to my neighborhood, and more like, come here if you need to be here, like we would love to have you. This is important. I hope that feeling that I had is your feeling now, but there are all these other. People are going to move in and they're going to be like, you know, what I want to do is build a condo. Can we build super awesome condos and knock down all the old houses, that's my version of ADHD, or you're going to get the people who are like, the neighborhood's over. It sucks.

Katy Weber 20:14
One of the things that has also made it complicated is the fact that we widened the spectrum a little bit right, like ADHD used to look very much, admittedly, like a little white boy, but it had a very like specific look to it that people could understand, and it was associated with deficit. And I think that one of the things that has made it more complicated with it in recent years is like you were talking about earlier this rise of the understanding of inattentive ADHD and that inner experience that a lot of us now are realizing, oh, that feeling of never fitting in, and that feeling of always catching up, and the you know, the metaphor of the Swan with the madly paddling underneath, and you know that also is what ADHD looks like. And honestly, I had a very similar experience to you, in I was never diagnosed with anything, but I was in the gifted program, and there was a handful of us, thankfully, who were like me, who always seemed to flunk out of everything, but never were kicked out of the gifted program, but we're waiting like, why weren't? Why haven't we been kicked out yet? So we were always told things like, you're really, really smart, you're really, really bright, but there was always a but that followed it, and it sounds like landmark just got rid landmark just got rid of the butt. Yeah. There was always this feeling like we were doing something wrong. And I also, you know, I dropped out of I had to redo High School. My senior year, I had to draw. I dropped out of college. So I had a lot of the, like, textbook, obvious signs when I was diagnosed, to look back and think like, oh yeah. The signs were there all along. But it wasn't until I started interviewing women on my podcast that I started to see that, like the vast majority of the women I was interviewing were women who did very well in school, who were white knuckling it and holding it together. And ended up like it was actually, I remember it was your colleague, Laura key was one of the first like interviews where we really talked about, like, the anxiety piece of holding it together, right? And how, like, that's what ADHD also looks like. And so, you like, I was diagnosed before my kids, which I think is rare for moms, but like, my son was very much, like, you know, cut from the same cloth as me. He was very easy for me to be like, Oh, if I have it, you have it. But my daughter was very much that very high performing. Did really well, great grades, you know, total perfectionist. But also, like, had a panic attack if she got a 75 and in on a French test, and I had to, like, pick her up from school because she couldn't stop crying. I was like, wait a minute, that's also ADHD. So, so basically, it's like, as we widen kind of our understanding, or as we widen the spectrum, very similar to when we got rid of the term Asperger's and autism suddenly became this vast spectrum of support needs. It's like, on the one hand, it's really great for advocacy and reducing stigma, but it also makes it really difficult for those people who benefit from having a certain type of understanding of what the disorder looks like. And so I do feel like, the more we're like, you have it and you have it, and we all have it, it's great, because then it's like, Yay, everybody come to my neighborhood. But it also, there's some I think that also contributes to the eye rolling of like, okay, well, if everybody has it, then, then does anyone have it, right? Then, let's

Rae Jacobson 23:25
stop caring. Yeah, it's a tricky one. Yeah, it is. I mean, I think you don't want to gatekeep and you want people to get the community and the benefit and stuff. And I am far from unique. But like, I you know, I think everybody comes to this differently. Like, I know a lot of people who strongly feel this is not a disorder, this is a neurotype. I feel very like good within myself and my 80s, she's part of me, and that is like a wonderful way to proceed. I think equally valid is the experience of being like this has been really challenging for me. This has caused a lot of damage in my life. For me, it feels like a disorder, you know. And I think sometimes when I'm talking to people, I'll, like, explain the language I use, like, I use disorder, because for me, that's what it's felt like. But I also understand when people just say, like, I'm an ADHD, or like, you know, there's a lot of different ways we come to it, but there is a difference between traits and impairment, right? And I think that's where the kind of, like, how big does the tent get? Thing becomes really important, because it's like everybody does experience some stuff like this. However, if you're having a panic attack, that's not something because your French test didn't work out. That's not the same as being someone who just does really well in school and also loses their backpack sometimes, like, I think, for to be pushed into this category of somebody who, like, needs assistance or support or treatment, for ADHD, that's something where it's really important to figure out for me anyway, like, is this really ADHD? Is this something else? And that's one of the places where I get very. Concerned about the like, we've all got it, and everyone's in, you know, like, come on down. Because it's like, it could genuinely be an anxiety and, you know, something that needs a very different course of help, like an anxiety disorder. It could be trauma. It could be all these things wrapped into one. Maybe you have ADHD and something else. But, you know, if you talk to any clinician, and I've talked to 8 million of them, I'm sure you have too. You say, like, oh, you know, ADHD and depression. What would you treat first? And they, 100% of times, say depression, because that is the more dangerous piece of the puzzle, that is the thing that is holding you in a certain space where you can't really move forward. So we need to deal with that before we deal with this. You know, there's, there's certain pieces to this where it's like, I think acceptance and inclusion and community are really beneficial. But it's also important to say, like, Okay, well, in terms of, like, is this just something where I'm like, You know what? This helps me explain myself a little bit better and I'm feeling good about it, or is it like, Oh, now I understand why I had those panic attacks. Now I understand why this was so hard, even when I was doing well, I was like, panic all the time. Or, like, now I understand why I failed out of school and repeated my senior year, even though everybody told me I was so smart. Like, that kind of thing is different to me. Then we all kind of have ADHD, which I frankly don't agree with. I don't know. I'm not saying it as clearly as I'd like to, but I think my, what it comes down to, for me is if we dilute the idea of ADHD into like, something that is just, like, I don't know, like, seems like kind of familiar, like, I kind of like that. Like, yeah, I relate to that. Let's get with that, which is to some degree, like, beneficial for a lot of people, because it feels good to be part of something. And then we also look at, like, what ADHD can do, like, to, you know, some of the research that I know you know about, like the Steven Hinshaw study, the Berkeley girls study, suicidality in girls who have combined type ADHD is significantly higher than it is in neurotypical girls or girls who even have other types of ADHD. Like, there are things where it's like, this isn't a fuzzy boundary. This is something we need to understand so that we can help people be healthy, be okay, be able to, like, navigate their lives in a way that feels manageable. So it's it's tricky that conversation, because you don't want to leave anybody out, and you don't want to close any doors, and you don't want to be the person who pulls up the ladder. But at the same time, it is true that if everybody has ADHD somehow all the time, then none of us do right, because then it's just being a person, and that shuts a lot of people out from getting help

Katy Weber 27:23
right well. And I think also it muddies the waters too, when we try to use clinically significant as the litmus test of whether you have it or not, right. Because I think also, like, there's a lot of ways in which in a sexist, capitalist society, like what is dangerous, like eating disorders and depression, suicidality, substance use, like, yes, these are all very dangerous. But like, as a society, we don't look at those things as dangerous, right? You know? We look at them as sort of like quirky or just sort of like, that's just what it's like. Like, we sort of look at it as part of life. And so I think, like when we talk about being clinically significant in terms of ADHD traits. Or, you know, like, I always joke, nobody comes to their ADHD diagnosis because their life is great, and they're like, I need a name for this superpower, right? Like, everybody who's diagnosed with ADHD relates to the struggles of living life with ADHD. But in theory, if we're diagnosing children and understanding more, you know. And I'm part of the find the ADHD girls organization, which is, you know, this movement, to make sure that, you know, all girls are at least assessed by the time they are seven or eight. And in theory, it's really wonderful. Like, wouldn't it be great if the little girl who is like, sitting still and well behaved and not bothering the teacher, but is, you know, a million miles away and really, really struggling, or has some sort of learning disorder that she doesn't understand yet? You know, if we could recognize that as ADHD, it's great. But also, like in theory, if we're diagnosing children with ADHD, then their their traits shouldn't be clinically significant by adulthood, right? Like, it's the misdiagnosis, it's the misunderstanding of our ADHD that has led us to have clinically significant traits. Maybe you're not. I feel like you're sort of like, like, I think what's confusing me too, is I recently started working with so I'm in school for mental health counseling right now in grad school, and so I'm doing my internship with adolescents at a partial hospitalization program. The kids who are coming in there are high risk. They're suicidal, they have substance use issues. So every single kid who walks through that door, I'm like, they're neurodivergent, like, I see it in every single kid, and then I start to doubt myself, like, Am I seeing it like, is it something else, right? Like, why does it seem like every kid is neurodivergent? On the one hand, I'm like, Well, look at where you work. Of course, every kid that comes through the door is going to be neurodivergent. They're all struggling with the things that we struggle with. But then nobody else is talking about it too. And in the field, it feels like I'm speaking a different language a lot of the time when I say. It's clearly autism. And they look at me and they're like, I don't know what you're talking about. There's no signs of autism. Anyway, I'm on a whole tangent at this point, but I think this idea of like, when we put a really fine point on it, when it comes to clinically significant, then we're relying on our own internal like compass in terms of how much we do or do not struggle with something. And then I then that it becomes really many, because I gaslight myself all the time about my own struggles, right? I gaslight myself all the time about whether this is worthy of help, or whether I just need to, like, buckle down and figure it out on my own, and all of that. And so there are times where I feel like I don't know if my ADHD is clinically significant. I don't even know what that means a lot of the time, right? But if I look at my life and the timeline of all the times I had near misses from really ridiculous, impulsive decisions, or, you know, looking academically like, all the things where I'm like, oh, clearly that was ADHD. Would my life have been different if I was diagnosed as a kid, I don't know

Rae Jacobson 31:02
to me, and this is something that, like, I feel like, is like I'm saying now to like, kind of everything we've been saying. The thing about diagnosis is that it is just one thing, right? Like, it's not the journey. It is a step. And that is often like, especially in the way that people talk about things now, it's like, kind of held up as, like, the ultimate goal. Like, you got diagnosed, but it's like, what does that do for you? You know, like, I got diagnosed at each guy, I was thrilled about it, because I was so glad to have, like, an explanation, and then I still didn't know how to do any of the executive functioning things that had held me back my whole life. It took me decades. I'm still working on it. I think that is part of the problem of like, it's like, quick fix, and it's like, Nah, not so much, though, because also, and then you also have to deal with all, like, the self esteem piece and the psychological piece and all the other things that come along with it, or all the other things that it makes you like at greater risk for. Like, for example, I had terrible postpartum depression, which we just learned ADHD makes you five times more likely to have so like, there's a lot of stuff like that that is kind of like an unfolding piece of this. But I feel like you said capitalism, and like, it's like my favorite thing to talk about, so I'm gonna hold on to it. But like, you know, there's a lot of conversation right now. I know you've seen it about is ADHD, like, just a collection of traits that are held over from a hunter gatherer times. And, like, really, it's just like a different type of brain that, like, you know, is adapted to a different sort of a living and you can just find the right way to live. ADHD will become insignificant in your life. And you know what? Maybe, but you know what I have to do? Have a job. You know what I have to do? Take care of my kid. When I was a kid, I had to go to school. There's nothing I feel like in that theory, which is, like, if you have a million dollars and you can start an organic farm or something, or like, leave and like, go off and join the circus. Like, I don't know what that world is like, because I don't live in it. But like, I don't think that's the best way to talk about ADHD, because it ignores the fact that we do live under capitalism, and we do have to have these things that butt up against who we are and how our brains work regardless, right? Like and when you talk about the kids who come in to your center, and are they neurodivergent? Are they not like a person who is not doing well to the point that you're seeing them, that's a person who is in distress regardless, right? Like, whether the stress is coming from neurodivergence or the stress is coming from trauma, and, like, also, How broad is the description that we were like, you know, the the umbrella of neurodivergence, like, does it include mental health? That's like, something where I feel like, I get very itchy about the capitalism piece where I'm like, we've created a world where so many people who live in it and have different types of brains cannot thrive. Like we are constantly trying to, like, bend ourselves into these shapes just to be able to, like, survive. And it's harder for black and brown people. It's harder for women. It's harder for trans people, it's harder for like, the further you stray from the white male norm, and I should say specifically wealthy white male norm, the harder it's going to be for you. And that's not even to say that every white male who's got money is doing great. So it's like, I think when we think about this, like, big 10 and the comfort and the finding of like, the ADHD thing, one of the pieces of that conversation that often goes away to me is the ISM part like we live under capitalism. We live in a society that doesn't want women to succeed. We live in a place that is built for brains that don't look anything like ours, bodies that don't look anything like ours. There's no part of it that is a smooth path, and it's just this other thing that makes it harder or less hard to navigate. It like to the horror movie idea, you know, like we aren't walking a road that makes sense, and when we acknowledge that, it gets at least a little bit more navigable to me. Like, I'm like, okay, but when we talk about ADHD, is something. That everybody's kind of got or kind of doesn't like, I think the defining thing between disorder and like, maybe this is just who I am, is the fact that you, you do have to interact with these structures that are going to make it really, really hard for you if you have a neurodivergent brain, right?

Katy Weber 35:17
Yeah. And I think at the end of the day, that's sort of how I've come to understand ADHD as kind of an extension of a neurodivergent brain, which is like a neurodivergent brain, whether that's autistic or not, or whether there's a larger umbrella called neurodivergence. A neurodivergent brain ends up with a lot of side dishes based on what environment you're in, and so like I look at ADHD as a side effect of a neurodivergent brain, the way that muscle pain is the side effect of being trapped in a cell

Unknown Speaker 35:55
where that came from. I was really trying to find something similar, but I couldn't

Unknown Speaker 36:01
think of anything. No, keep going. This is definitely a safe crowd,

Speaker 1 36:06
trapped in a jail cell. And all I got was this, right? All I got was this last muscle pain.

Katy Weber 36:13
But, you know, that's how I've sort of understood it was that, like we are all operating. And so I do kind of relate to the hunter, Farmer brain. I love it conceptually. But again, it's like, how is I think it's really important what you said in terms of, like, how is this diagnosis going to help me, or is it going to help me or not? And one of the things I kind of was disappointed by when I started working with younger people, they are all diagnosed with ADHD. Like, I kind of was like, Oh, they're going to get an ADHD diagnosis. And their whole, you know, their entire view of life is going to change, because that's what happened to me, even though I was 45 but it was like it was so it was so revelatory. And I felt like this phoenix rising from the ashes. When I had this diagnosis, it felt really empowering to suddenly say there's nothing wrong with me. And so I thought that same thing would happen to young people, and I'm not seeing that. I'm not seeing a diagnosis as being revelatory for kids. It's kind of confirming for them that they are something is wrong with that, right? It's one more, right? And so this, it's instilling in them that lifelong feeling of like, I need to be fixed, the Yeah, but I'm very smart, but Right? It's like we're still perpetuating that idea that something's wrong with you, and we've just named it earlier, and we've given you medication earlier and but I don't know how to change that, how to like, steer that gigantic ship in another direction for young people,

Rae Jacobson 37:37
I feel like that's a tricky thing. I mean, you're right, that there's this kind of dichotomy of, like, when you're young and you get any type of diagnosis, I think it's harder because, I mean, depending on your age, you want so much to be like your peers. Like, I think that that's like a thing that we were supposed to be like, everybody wants to be so unique all the time. And it's like, I work in the West Village, every girl in this neighborhood is wearing a white tank top and blue jeans every day. Is that legible to me? No, is it clearly important to them? Yes, like, I think we don't like, especially as adults, to accept the fact that like, kids want to be together. They want to be a like, like, there's a reason that, you know, I wore black eyeliner when I was younger. It's because the people who made the music I like did it like. There is a joy and belonging and being a young person is about navigating that. Like, who am I? Where do I fit in? Where don't I fit in? What kind of person am I? When you have something that you feel marks you as different some people, sometimes that's a joyous and wonderful thing, but when it's something you didn't choose, you know, it's not eyeliner, it's not a decision. It's something that makes you feel like, well, what now? Like, I don't want anybody to know that I'm not like other people and I have no control over that, like, it's not a great feeling, versus for an adult, when you're like, Oh, someone finally gave me the Rosetta Stone to my brain, and I get to understand that, like, I'm not just a mess. I'm actually this thing that has a label and symptoms and understandable things in a community attached to it, that's they're just two completely different experiences. But also, and I have a seven year old, and you have kids, my daughter's in school, she very clearly has ADHD, things that she has to do in a day that would make me break and has they've, you know, broken me in the past compared to what I have to do at work, wild. You know, structured seating. Can't get up to go to the bathroom whenever you want. Need to Be quiet, can't run around. I mean, the amount of imposed structure on children, that is hard for all kids, but it's very, very hard if you have neurodivergence, is wild, like, frankly, genuinely wild. And as an adult, we don't really have, I mean, there are places and ways where that is but like, we do have somewhat more direction over our lives. Like, that's part of the, you know, one of the few good things about growing up, and if I feel like I don't want to go to bed, I don't go to bed till later. That's not an option for my daughter, because if she doesn't go to sleep, then she's really wacky in the morning. It's something where like kids experience difference in a really different way. I'm there to say like they they the structure and pressure and social dynamic for them is so, so different than it is for us as adults. And I feel like the diagnosis piece, like you said, it's depending on when it happens. It can be a relief. It can feel like a label. It can feel different depending on who you are, what community you come from, do they back you up? Do they not is it something where you have a lot of information and you know a lot of friends who've also got that diagnosis, and it feels good like there's all these things that come together to make you decide if this is something that makes it feel like a relief or a burden, and that's not easy to pick apart for each individual person. So I don't know, being an adult who has ADHD and working with children, it's tricky like it, it's hard not to be like but I've seen the other side, guys, it's pretty good over here. Yeah, you know, because it's not the light they're leading.

Katy Weber 40:56
I noticed fairly early on, when I was interviewing women that, like those of those of my guests who had been diagnosed with something in in childhood, usually dyslexia, but some kind of learning disability in childhood, at least, had this notion instilled on them very early on, that they deserved help and that accommodations were a thing. And so there felt like there was a sense of like it wasn't just piled onto them that they, you know, they, they didn't seem to grow up with the same amount of shame and guilt that the rest of us who ended up with depression and anxiety did. But now I feel like I've interviewed enough women that that's not true either, right?

Rae Jacobson 41:36
Yeah, I don't think that was my experience, right?

Katy Weber 41:39
Like, even if you are, even if some adult tells you that you are worthy of help and you don't have to figure it all out on your own, like you still end up with the same kind of shame and guilt from just being a woman in society of like, you know, if you can't, you know, fold laundry or do the dishes, it's because you were a terrible human being, Regardless of whether

Rae Jacobson 42:00
you know why? Well, I think also, adults don't really tell you you're worthy of help. They tell you you need help. And those two things for kid are not the same. Like my experience of that was like, well, you're going to need this. I had a doctor one time. I said, Why do I have to take this medicine? I was probably 11, and they just tried Ritalin for the first time, despite not having an ADH diagnosis, which is

Katy Weber 42:23
so in a whole basket. So wait, a doctor prescribed Ritalin without an ADHD diagnosis. All right, you weren't like, on the playground or anything, but okay,

Rae Jacobson 42:31
no, no, no. That came later. Katy, that came later. Wait till High School. And I was like, Why do I take because he goes well, you you're just not going to do well. If you don't take it, you just aren't going to be able to do it. I mean, you don't want to fit I mean, you don't want to fail out of school, do you? And that stayed with me, because that's a pretty significant thing to say to like, you know, a pretty young kid, he said something to the effect of, if you want to be like your friends, you're going to have to take the medication. And all I wanted was just to be able to fit in with my friends. You know, it wasn't that I was such a joiner, but like, I just wanted to be the person who wasn't in trouble. And that's a really powerful thing. And so when people tell you you need help, and you can see very clearly the consequences when you don't get the help or accept the help, it doesn't make you feel like, wow, I'm worthy of like this support. It makes you feel like, I guess without this, I can't do it. I mean, and I think it's different for everybody. I only speak for myself with speak for myself with that, but I know now, though, again, I can't help but know that this was the 1980s where things were quite different. I hope now, and I hope this isn't changing in our current situation, that the way that we talk about all of this is pretty different than it was when I was a kid. And that's great. That's a wonderful thing that brings me a lot of hope and joy, because I do find that like my daughter knows a bunch of kids who've had an ADHD diagnosis, and when she got glasses, she was really nervous about getting her friend came and said, I'm dyslexic. And my daughter said, yeah. She said, No, we're both different. Oh, and it made her so happy. You know, it's, there are changes in the way that this is happening, you know, like, and I think that's something that brings me, like, a lot of hope, a lot of joy. But the changes, you know, as ever, right? They're not across the board, and they're piecemeal, and they can be set back. And it's, it's something where, like, when you talk about, like, how does it feel to hear people talk about ADHD the way we talk about it now? It's flawed. It's a flawed situation. But the thing that brings me a lot of hope is that, you know, I did a ton of this advocacy for years, you know, over a decade with tons of people be like, I don't think people care about this. I pitched a book about women with ADHD in maybe 2006 and they were like, I just don't think anyone cares or wants to hear about this. And I was like, Really, you don't think people care about women with ADHD? And they're like, No, you could do it, but no, I mean, there was no

Katy Weber 44:52
interest, none. Now it's the opposite. Now it's like the market is flooded, right?

Rae Jacobson 44:56
Everyone's like, come on. There's too many people talking about it. So there's. No sweet spot, right for that, like, if you got it, like, maybe one tiny window, but, you know, it's like, I'd rather have the flood. I think because they think about the way that kids feel, the way that I felt, the way that you felt, like, when you're just like, What is wrong with me? Like, if my kid can grow up without saying to herself, what is wrong with me, that'd be great. You know, that's like, the goal. And so if we have to go through whatever this fog is, like, this isn't like a new cycle. You know, before all the 2020, stuff, people would hear, I had ADHD and beyond the try harder thing, they'd be like, Oh, well, you can get that from, like, fluoride. Like, trust me, those conversations didn't last that long. But, like, there was always some kind of, like, insert insane thinking here. Like, you know, it's from cell phone radiation. It's from candy. It's from too much time on the phone. It's from like, you know, like, there's this skepticism and the cyclical nature of people judging it. I don't think is that new. I just think it's a higher volume, because we have more people talking about it than we ever have. But again, like, we'll weather it, and people who relate to this period of time will get what they need from it and go their separate ways. And those of us who are like, this is your life, you know, like, Hi. Katy Weber, this is your life. ADHD, we'll stick around, and we'll still be here for each other, and hopefully that will mean that kids from these younger generations are going to grow up with a completely different sense of self than we

Katy Weber 46:21
had well, and one of the things to pivot to hyper focus. This is my

Unknown Speaker 46:28
segue here, elegant. I

Katy Weber 46:30
like it my hyper focus. As many of us, you know, when we are diagnosed in adulthood, many of us, like our hyper focus becomes ADHD. And so I started the podcast because I wanted to talk to other women about this experience of like, it's so profound, but now it's five years later, I'm still so endlessly fascinated. I've never had a hyper focus this long, like I'm waiting for, I'm waiting to get bored, and it hasn't happened. And I just think it's because, you know, this podcast is set up in a way that is just meandering conversations about whatever is interesting the best kind, right? And so I don't know if that's a compliment or a criticism of hyper focus. Of why I like it is that it's really hard to pin down right, like it's really kind of one of the things I love is that it's like, I just buckle in for a conversation that Ray is going to have with whoever her guest is, right? So I'm curious, is that how it was pitched? Were you the one who pitched the podcast and understood talk to you like, walk me through the the genesis of of hyper focus.

Rae Jacobson 47:30
So, I mean, I don't know if you guys, I work at, understood beyond hyper focus, so you were there. Okay, all right, yes, I'm our insights lead,

Katy Weber 47:38
but the ADHD podcasts are all within the last couple of years too.

Rae Jacobson 47:42
Yes, those are new. So I came from job mind, like I said, I've been kind of in the zone for a long time. And when we were developing the podcast here, I worked on climbing the walls the wonderful narrative podcast that we had about women with ADHD developing that. And like I said, I love that. That is like, a big piece of our conversation. But one of the things that drives me a little crazy about ADHD, the way that we talk about it, the way that we think about it, the way that we're sort of like the conversation flows, is that there isn't really, or I haven't seen in media so much of things that are talking about the experiences beyond the personal, like that. That's something that like because it is so personal and it is so important. And like, like, I love your show for this reason, because you can just, like, get to move in with somebody and know them, and, like, just be there. It's like the fly that you always wanted to be. You get to be, you know, and it's like, the most wonderful fly experience I can imagine. Like, I love it so much. I do believe this. Like, there are, there's you, there's Laura, there are these wonderful podcasts who live in this personal space, and climbing the walls was sort of more of like a storytelling thing. And I thought, like, I haven't seen anything that does the journalistic side. And initially, hyper focus came about because they were like, look, you know a lot about this. You like to talk about this. What do you want to talk about? And I it was sort of a free range, free roaming, like you said. Like, strap in. Here we go. This is what we're talking about this week. Who seems interesting to us show because for me, that's what hyper focus has always been. It's been like a ping pong situation where you're like, Oh, that's great. I want to get into this thing and like, now I know everything there is to know about Gnosticism, or, you know, all the products ever made in Sweden, because I had three hours and that's what caught my attention. Like, whatever it is, it tended to be for me, that episodic interest, and so it fit with what I thought about it. But the longer we've had the show, and the more it's evolved, we have turned more into the journalistic stuff. And so we're aiming now, because so many things are happening with science, with the destruction of funding for science, with sort of changes in the way we have a conversations about it with the Internet. I mean, there's it's just this thing where we've moved, in a way that I've never seen in my 20 years covering this topic into a wider sphere where ADHD and neurodiversity and learning and mental health are you. Touching things they never touched before are being talked about in ways they've never been talked about before and studied in new ways and explored in new ways, and in the news in ways that I've never seen before, for better and worse. And so we're very focused on that now, because it is nice to have this resource where you're like, Let's tune in and see, like, what is going on. Because I feel like you hear, you could hear 1000 episodes on Ancient Rome, or, you know, people digging into every conspiracy theory that's ever occurred, or whatever, and like, those things are fascinating because we like to know the comprehensive scope of a topic. And I think hyper focus, our goal is to kind of bring that out for ADHD, for learning, for Neuro diversity,

Katy Weber 50:38
yeah, right, but also with journalistic integrity. And I think that's right in this age of information where, you know, we're all dealing with, for better, for worse, Tiktok self diagnoses, long before clinical diagnosis. You know, what are the voices, not of reason, but like the voices that have actually fact checked.

Rae Jacobson 50:58
And yeah, the voices that have fact checked is exactly the voices that are like, Oh, well, that's an inconvenient fact for me, but I'm still gonna say it, because it's

Katy Weber 51:07
true, right? And is looking beyond lived experience, because, like, you're right, it is really complicated. Because I think lived experience is one of those things that is incredibly validating. It's, it's how we relate to our the diagnosis. I mean, so much of our experience with ADHD is very different from what, what the DSM, you know, questionnaires and assessments are asking, right? And so then it's like, well, wait a minute, if I'm not reflecting the experience that it's in the DSM, then is it even ADHD, right? You know, and that we get back to that question of, like, if my lived experience is different from yours, how can we both have the same disorder, right?

Rae Jacobson 51:41
It's complicated, yeah, but that, that complication, is where we kind of dive in. And also, you know, the other thing that I feel, I'm interested to hear how you feel about this, but I feel very strongly about it, is, for example, it would have been very helpful to me to have known that women with ADHD are at greater risk for postpartum depression before I had a child, if I had understood that, I probably would have done some things differently. It's helpful for me to know after we interviewed the amazing scientist, Sandra coy, Dr Sandra coy, She's incredible. We had a great episode. We talked to her about the connection between ADHD and heart disease. For women, there are other things that don't permeate into the personal sphere that are really, really valuable to us to, like, understand about the way that we work, the way our bodies operate, the way that sort of, you know, politics and science and other things that touch us without our consent are, that's a strange way to put that. But you know what I'm trying to say, operating within an interaction with ADHD and neurodivergence, and so that's kind of like where we're living now on hyper focus is like digging in, like, if you're interested in the Tiktok algorithm, let me tell you, we have a great episode with Kate Osborne coming up. She's amazing. She's Katy osaurus on the internet. I've interviewed her. Yeah. Oh, she's hilarious. Yeah. So we're going to talk about ADHD Grifters, because that is an obsession of mine and also hers, and about how Tiktok rewards you for selling things but not telling the truth. There's so many angles you can dive into with it. And so I feel like that's, that's where we live on the show, yeah,

Katy Weber 53:08
well, I mean, I worked with done years ago, and I felt like I had, I feel like I do a lot of due diligence research into who I work with, and I very heavily weighed the benefits, you know, of like, okay, on the one hand, I think virtual diagnoses are really important right now, and there was a lot there. But anyway, that was the first company that came to mind, you know, has love to talk to you about, right? Because, you know, they obviously ended up not being a great company, and I kind of had to rethink how much research, and you know who I align myself with, and a lot

Unknown Speaker 53:44
of that stuff, but the CEO is in jail.

Katy Weber 53:47
Yeah, probably, yeah, they, and they also rebranded themselves to to a very like, benign sounding mental health company, like, like mind well, or something. The more benign it sounds. I gotta look that up. It's terrible. And they're the same people. But yeah, anyway, they

Unknown Speaker 54:06
are what's Enron called them? Exactly.

Katy Weber 54:11
But what was I gonna say? Oh, one of the things I was talking about with Danielle Elliot too, when I was interviewing her about climbing the walls, was like, just feeling like the red string is all over the place on the wall, and feeling like that meme of Charlie Day with ADHD, because it's like, you know, you look at like here what we know about the increase in autoimmune disorders in young women, right? The increase in hormone related stress disorders in women in general. And then you think about like, women are the safety net, the social safety net in the US, and so we're all experiencing executive dysfunction. We're all relating to executive dysfunction. When we talk about ADHD, are we just relating to the executive function? Part of it in terms of like, yeah, we're all under How do you even begin to parse complex trauma when you're a woman living. In a society, right? And so it's like, that's where I'm curious about, like, when I was say, is this ADHD or is this something else I'm more looking at, like, okay, what are we all relating to? We're all relating to executive dysfunction that could come from so many different places. That's the thing, right? And so it's like, how do we even begin to understand what is happening to our brains and our bodies, but we're also seeing, like a, you know, as Katy osaurus likes to say, the Venn diagram of autoimmune disorders and autism and neurodivergence is a stack of pancakes. That's where I'm fascinated by it's like, where are we seeing the signs everywhere that are leading back to neurodivergent brains and nervous systems? And we're just naming them all. They just were just like so siloed in terms of our understanding of what is essentially happening to women and our bodies and our brains right now as a result of modern society. That's my soapbox,

Speaker 1 55:55
amazing thing to solve, just no problems. So that's my hyper focus for the next 20 years or so, sounds good to me, figuring out, please tell me.

Katy Weber 56:05
But anyway, it's been such a pleasure to have you on. Thank you so much for agreeing to be on the show. I'm a huge fan of hyper focus, and I just I love the questions you ask. I love the guests you have. I always look forward to your wonderful journalistic question. I mean, it's it's curiosity. And I think it's one of the wonderful things about ADHD, is that lifelong learning and curiosity that makes it so fascinating.

Rae Jacobson 56:28
Well, the feeling is deeply mutual. Well, thank you. I really, I just love what you do. And, you know, I don't know, I feel like every time I meet another woman who's in this world, and it just feels like, yeah, like, Oh, good, you're here too. Now I feel good, you know, like, this is, like, it just makes you feel like a glow. It's true.

Katy Weber 56:47
And that's one thing after interviewing for for five years now, on the same topic, I it feels like coming home when I'm having these conversations. Because I it is, I'm like, it feels like taking off a two type bra or something. Like, yes, like, it feels so comfortable and that. And I hold on to that when I'm out in the world with others now, like clinicians who where I'm like, Are we speaking a different language? And then I start to guess. I start to second guess myself and my understanding of the world. And then I'm like, Oh, I just need to go back and talk to other people, yeah? Because then it's like, oh no. I feel fully. I feel fully, like, seen,

Rae Jacobson 57:21
yeah, oh, right, I'm me.

Katy Weber 57:27
Well, thanks again, Ryan, it's been, truly been a pleasure. Thank you for having

Katy Weber 57:36
me. There you have it. Thank you for listening, and I really hope you enjoyed this episode of the women and ADHD podcast. If you'd like to find out more about me and my coaching programs, head over to women and adhd.com if you're a woman who was diagnosed with ADHD and you'd like to apply to be a guest on this podcast, visit women and adhd.com/podcast guest, and you can find that link in the episode show notes. Also, you know, we ADHD ers crave feedback, and I would really appreciate hearing from you the listener. Please take a moment to leave me a review on Apple podcasts or audible. And if that feels like too much, and I totally get it, please just take a few seconds right now to give me a five star rating or share this episode on your own social media to help reach more women who maybe have yet to discover and lean into this gift of neurodivergency, and they may be struggling and they don't even know why. I'll see you next time when I interview another amazing woman who discovered she's not lazy or crazy or broken, but she has ADHD and she's now on the path to understanding her neurodivergent mind and finally, using this gift to her advantage. Take care till then you.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai